Italy - Luca Mondo

Interview Details

• Region: Europe - Italy
• Language: English
• Interviewee: Luca Mondo
• Interviewers: Terry Dunne & Mags Liddy
• Additional Speaker: Chukki
• Date: 2017
• PGA Affiliation: Ya Basta
• Transcript: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d76o5laip23yt8l/PGA%20Italy%201%20-%20Luca%201.docx?dl=0

Transcript

Terry Dunne: So thanks for this Luca. I think the first thing we want to ask you just to get things started is what was your role in PGA?. What were you involved in within PGA?

Luca Mondo: Yeah. So thank you for doing this work.

I was part of a collective called “ Ya Basta!! – Milano”, in my city, Milan. And this collective was active in the PGA activity and I was the one who was following this field of activity for the collective.

So we started being involved in PGA in the fall of 98 in the preparation of the International Caravan and we took responsibility and organized the Italian part of the International Caravan which happened in June 99.

And then in 2000 we participated in the Prague March organizing the Italian delegation which was very big because it was a train with like 2000 people moving from Italy to Prague. And that was in 2000.

I don’t remember exactly when but at one point we were proposed to be the conveners for Europe for the PGA Network as Ya Basta! Milano. And so we became conveners.

This was before 2001 when the big event of June of 2001 happened in Genoa, the G-8 mobilization. So that was very big. And we, being Italian and being convenors for PGA, had a big work into this process. We organized a European meeting in Milan in our place, before Genoa, and that gathered like 300 people from all over Europe. It was a big thing.

And then after June of 2001, in September I attended the Cochabamba Conference, the International Conference of the PGA.

So I have a feeling that was the point in which things started to change in many, many aspects so I think the movement started to oscillating a little … I mean that kind of rise which was there since 2001, since Genoa started to shake a little bit. It was not so much strong.

Then 2011 September, the global war on terror: so all the movements around the world started to have problems with this new phase of the war. It was a war, a war on terror. It was affecting all the political movements.

So after Cochabamba which was in that period- I feel by one side there was this general crisis of the movement, which affected us also as Ya Basta!, and we decreased our commitment. At the same time, we invested a lot of energy in the local process as Ya Basta! Milano. So we squatted a social center in Milano- we squatted 24 apartments for migrants, for migrant families, homeless migrants and we did some other local projects, so naturally the energy were not enough to follow everything. So we decreased our commitment in the PGA process.

And at the same time, the Spanish “[Movimiento] por la Resistencia Global” became the European conveners after us. So we gave them the responsibility.

I’m speaking about what did my collective… and that was also my work because I was the one who was mostly following this work. So I can say that after 2001, 2002 … maybe something in 2003, that was the last participation we had in PGA.

Mags Liddy: OK.

Terry Dunne: Just following on from what you’re saying there Luca you said that you were the person responsible for this work for your collective. How exactly was that like, were you appointed or was it just you had a particular interest or …?

Luca Mondo: What do you mean. Are you speaking in terms of, if I had a salary or ..

Terry Dunne: No I mean. ..

Mags Liddy: How were you?- Did you volunteer?

Luca Mondo: How did I become responsible? What was the reason?

Terry Dunne: And how did that work in terms of the internal organization of Ya Basta!.

Luca Mondo: Yeah, well I mean we come from .. I mean we are part of a sort of organizational culture, in the sense that we are used to have a division of tasks and division of roles and responsibilities taken by different people which relate to the collective, to share their work and to coordinate the work with the others. But there they have their own autonomy and decision-power in their own specific fields.

Terry Dune: OK

Luca Mondo: so .. I was interested in it, and I was able to speak in English and I think that was the reason why I took the initiative, the collective endorsed me. They were happy with me doing it.

Terry Dunne: Yeah

Luca Mondo: I was doing this for the collective and at the same time my other comrades were following other fields like the social center, or the squat with the migrants, following the coffee project (we are distributing coffee from the Zapatista communities) and so on. it was like a division of task agreed in the collective, which was like, uhm, checked in the meetings. So the meetings were the place where report were given to the collective. And check was done about the work that the single members were doing and then there was a general discussion and a general decision about all the processes and then everybody else had to implement the general agreement. But as I said with a good degree of autonomy given to the fact that you were the one following the day by day decision.

Mags Liddy: : Yeah, yes that’s exactly what we said. And can I just ask- PGA, you became the conveners. You are conveners before Genoa? For Europe?

Luca Mondo: I think yes..

Mags Liddy: and where did?

Luca Mondo: Well just to just identify a date. Maybe Chukki can help this..I think that was a conference in Bangalore in 2000.

Chukki: in 1999

Luca Mondo:: after the caravan?

Chukki: yes- August

Luca Mondo:: That was the conference where we were given the responsibility.

Mags Liddy: OK. So yeah

Luca Mondo:: It was immediately before Prague. So for the Prague process there was no time to play a role at all as conveners in the sense that everything was already happening before .. we were already part of it, but the convenorship officially was given in August. It was just one month before [wrong memory: it was one year before].

But for Genoa it was .. one year before [wrong memory: it was almost two years before]

Mags Liddy: and prior to that you’d been through the Intercontinental Caravan. But where did Ya Basta! Milan first hear about - where did you first hear about PGA? Had you been involved in encuentros in Spain?.

Luca Mondo: Actually, I mean, it was it was by chance in the sense that .. I mean, of course in the ECN, that European Counter Network, the first network of European activist in the web before Indymedia, there were mailing lists and circulating of messages and so on. And at one point we found in one of the lists that this project, the caravan, was coming. So it was like “Wow, that’s great!”. Before we didn’t follow the process, we were not really aware about it.

Mags Liddy: OK

Luca Mondo:: So we understood that this was happening, and I think also through the comrades of Il Molino, the social center in Lugano, in the Italian Swiss region. I think they translated the PGA Manifesto in Italian and they were just spreading the news that “This was happening, is there any Italian collective which is interested?” and so on … So that was the point of contact and the beginning of communication.

Terry Dunne: I just wanted to ask- at the 2001 meeting in Cochabamba. There was, from what I am reading, there was a criticism I think especially from organizations in the Global South of that kind of summit protest model

Luca Mondo:: Of which protest?

Terry Dunne: Of the “summit protest model”- summit protest hopping. And an idea of going towards sustained campaigns and -what happened with that? Was Ya Basta! moving in more of the direction of being more locally focused and focused on this issue with migrants and housing related to that?

Luca Mondo:: Well I have to say to the kind of movement which we are part of in Italy, the movement for autonomy, Autonomia Operaia, Autonomia… this kind of stream [In Italian autonomismo] – it always has the local work as a priority. I mean the same idea of the social centers is something which is very local, in a sense: you are in your neighborhood, in your City, you squat a place and you open it for activities and so on. And then also housing. So: housing, the social center, and also organizing the working cooperatives in the way of getting better wages and better work conditions, so work with local people which are working together. So that was always, it has always been a priority for us. But we are also very interested in doing nternational solidarity. T has been like this since forever: Palestine, Basque, Irish and then Zapatistas, then PGA. So in our culture, this idea that you have to have a strong grassroots work in order to sustain the networking, it has always been there …

Of course we agreed with this idea that- it’s very important. And that was also why, at that point in 2001 when we felt that our collective, after two ‒ three years of good work and rise of energies, good people, wish of doing things, that we started, we invested, we use this energy for, to strengthen our local work … It was in coherence with this idea, with this principle which was pretty much ours …

About the specific criticism regarding the PGA process, I have to say that I didn’t remember much of this. But I can say that this was there - I mean, it was also our feeling: it’s difficult to sustain this kind of global network and meetings and following meetings and a lot of financial challenges because of the tickets, etc., without keeping track of what you were doing locally, keeping … keeping a connection with what you are doing in your own place. And we felt that that was absolutely essential. So I can say in general terms, we agreed with these things. But then in the specific debate who spoke about it and so on, I cannot recall.

Terry Dunne: So what do you think that Peoples’ Global Action did well? what was its greatest success.?

Luca Mondo:: I have to say in my opinion Peoples’ Global Action was a wonderful experience. It was the right proposal, at the right time. Especially looking at it after some years, because that period was a period in which everybody, I mean, everybody was feeling the need of, getting active against this transformation of international relationships. Against this growth of the economy as the main principle of organizing the decisions, the policies, the laws and so on. So having a network like this in that moment it was perfect.

So I think yeah it was the right, the right proposal at the right time and I think I mean all this big campaigns we are speaking about are incredibly good experiences. And I mean I didn’t, I was not, we were not directly involved neither in Seattle, nor in June 18th in the UK which was in ’98, I think …

Terry Dunne: Yeah Yeah.

Luca Mondo:: So these are two mobilization more in which PGA played a very big role. So if we count in those years, you can count June 18th and then the caravan, then Prague, then Genoa and before Seattle. I mean in the biggest demonstration and in the biggest march PGA had a very strong role. I think we did a good job, a very good job, all together .. also Ya Basta!. Everybody who took part in that.

So I don’t know, I mean … And then specifically, for example, one point I feel PGA was very good at, was to put together different identities. In the sense that I feel it was the first attempt to make a sort of international network which was not ideologically homogeneous. It was not “The” communist international. It was not “The” anarchist international. It was a platform which was based on issues and some general agreement some general …but they were not asking you if you are an anarchist, or Trotskyist, or if you are a communist, or if you are a moderate. I mean: you had to agree on some issues and so on, and you have to come together, and you have to be ready to do things, so it was very practical oriented, and not the ideological debate, but work on specific issues.

And … we were not used to this way of conducting the assemblies with the signs, have you heard about it?

Mags Liddy: Hand signals.

Luca Mondo: Hand signals. At the beginning we were feeling a little strange. But in reality we ended … we, I mean me personally I think it was great. And this is also a way of, I mean, cutting the time of the debates, but at the same time it helps the participation, and it establishes a code for everybody just to express yourself very easily, also if you don’t want to speak, if you are little shy or so - you make a sign you are already in the process. I felt that this was… So the general idea was, I think, to build the space where it was possible for the people to meet, irrespective of their differences, and to interact and to create something concrete, something new. So that was very good.

And maybe, another aspect: it was to connect global and local. But that this is a big challenge. Yeah. You know. At the same time, they did it, I mean, we did it. In the sense we, for some years we were able to try this kind of thing, to take the challenge, let’s say, and to try to do our best.

Terry Dunne: Your - the involvement of Ya Basta! in PGA did have a positive local impact in Milan?

Luca Mondo: Well I have to say … relatively. In a sense, yes it had. It had especially because of …, I mean for Ya Basta! Milano, yes. And for the people we were able to reach for our initiative, yes, it was very inspiring. I mean, for example: the presence of the Caravan in 99. Hundreds of people came. They were amazed, they were very happy. And this helped us to find new people, new supporters. People who were inspired by the idea that it was possible to bring Indians, people from far countries, to make a tour in Italy and in Europe and so on. As well as Prague and all the other mobilizations… So yeah it was good.

…. Maybe we, maybe I, I was a little naïve. In the sense: I was thinking that this kind of big things were not boycotted so much by the media, I mean, I felt it was so big that it would not be possible for the media to marginalize it, and ignore it. But they did it anyway. So in spite of the fact that we are doing something really new and big, I felt that the media followed their politics, I mean affiliation, and they didn’t give space too much to what we were doing … But I think that was my problem. I was maybe expecting that, yeah that’s what we did was — as I said it was impossible to ignore. They were not just ignoring- they were just politically deciding not to speak about it.

Terry Dunne: Tell us a little bit more about the caravan and…

Luca Mondo: What are you interested in? What to talk about?

Mags Liddy: You mentioned Ya Basta! organized the Italian tour the Italian part of it. So, something about the logistics — when did it arrive and not specific dates but where did it go? The kind of responses from communities?

Luca Mondo: We, Ya Basta!, at the time of the caravan, were part of Leoncavallo which is the biggest social center in Italy and one of the oldest, maybe the oldest. So we had the infrastructure to host all of them directly. That made it possible for the caravan to come in a big number, I think only one bus didn’t come to Italy. And also because Italy, the FAO [Food and Agriculture Organization] is there which was a main point because of agricultural policies. And so they have to go to Rome too. They wanted to go to Rome to protest in front of FAO which was a key point for the issue about food agriculture, because it is the United Nations agency for agriculture.

So, yeah, the buses, they came to Milan. We hosted them in Leoncavallo, the social center. Yeah. There was some activity in Milan. I think we went against the stock exchange, because the stock exchange of Italy is in Milan. And we made a protest there. Then there was a protest against the Balkan War, which was happening, it was ’99. And then all of them together with some of us — we took a train to Rome because we were at that time, in a negotiation with the railway, similar to the one… we were able to get a train for a nominal price or zero price. In that occasion the railway they were hesitant to do anything because they were all foreigners, Indians — we don’t want to create any problem. So they really allowed them very easily. Usually what we had to do was go inside the train, start creating problems — in the sense of not going out and then finally negotiate with the local officers and so on. And finally, not to stop the train they were starting the train, and the people with them had to collect some money and so on. This was the usual case, but in that case the railway acknowledged the fact that at that time the passengers were quite unconventional. So they didn’t create any problems in spite of being a big group and so we were able to get a shift to Rome. And then in Rome, there was the FAO program. They were hosted in a social center. Which was the sort of a farm, in the city but in a green area, called LaTorre. I don’t think it does exist still [actually this social center is still existing and active], but at that time they hosted the whole group and then yeah after, after the protest in front of the FAO, we all came back. I think there was one more initiative in Milan and then they went to Treviso I think — where there was a gathering with a network of people in Treviso, like associations and like grassroots religious group which are close to the movement and so on. They hosted them for an event in a stadium, a small stadium. That was followed by one other Ya Basta! group which was federated with us .. we didn’t organize that directly. And then they went.

Then we met again in Cologne at the end of the caravan. Some of our people, they came, they went to Paris before their arrival to just take care of them from the stop before us and travel with them. Tell me what you want to know because I’m just telling you the program. What are you interested in?

Terry Dunne: the story is interesting. Also were they able to make links or was there an effort to make links with Italian farmer organizations and was there any commonality there?

Luca Mondo: At that time our link with the agricultural groups were very less. Actually after that we started to work more with farmers’ issues in Italy also, and now we have a good network… So I think these can be the possible good outcome of what happened then and what would happen after the Caravan.

Terry Dunne: OK. OK.

Luca Mondo: Because there is, for example, you know “Genuino Clandestino” it’s like a network of producers who are connected to the Social Centers, who are working with local seeds and against the GMO and with organic food and so on. So at that time that was the beginning I mean in the sense of speaking about this issue, dealing with this issue: GM and so on. And like a seed it grew some familiarity, some knowledge about the issues … then it helped. But at that time I don’t see there was much.

One thing that I felt was very good was, we celebrated their presence in a big festival which lasted in the night-time. And many people came and there were a lot of different things happening. Music and talks and it was called the Nirvana night. [laugh] Yeah. And. It went very good. It was good. People still remember about it. [whisper from Chukki]

Dario Fo came in the afternoon and met the group, the caravan, Professor Nanjundaswamy, the Indian main coordinator of the caravan.

Mags Liddy: Yes.

Luca Mondo: Dario Fo, the Nobel Prize for literature…

Mags Liddy: Great.

Terry Dunne: And as conveners for Europe what did Ya Basta! have to do? what might be involved in organizing as the conveners for Europe?

Luca Mondo: after August ’99, it means after the Caravan.

Mags Liddy: Yes after.

Luca Mondo: After the caravan. Yeah. Yeah. So as I said before I mean immediately after the nomination as convenors, I mean, the agreement to be convenors, I mean, Prague happened. the process was really on and didn’t change much. But after that we started to. [phone rings]

Mags Liddy: we are recoding again..

Terry Dunne: You were telling us about Ya Basta!’ s role as conveners for Europe.

Luca Mondo: Yes. So. After let’s see I think that the key role happened in that stretch of preparation between, I mean for Genoa, basically the year of Genoa in 2001. And if I remember correctly there was some preparation of Genoa in Italy, which maybe we shared with some of the groups we started work together, but on these I have little memory, not much. But, for sure, we circulated, we were reference, the local reference for PGA and also the convenors for the preparation of this big process. We organized this meeting in Leoncavallo before Genoa. It was in March 2001 I would say, and 300 delegates from all over Europe came and it was like “Wow! it would be big.” because if you make a preparation meeting and 300 people are coming it means … that was the real sign that the numbers were big in Genoa.

So I have to say that we were also quite busy into prepare the ground for what was happening in Genoa. So the energy for really like networking, more than spreading the information and being ready to answer, more maybe reacting to questions or reacting to specific demands, for necessities, more than promoting, in an active role the participation of the people. I don’t think we traveled a lot around Europe in that period because it was … I mean, something so big was happening and we had no energy to do this kind of networking. So it was more like: being in the place where the manifestation, the march, the protest was to happen, and providing information and organizing the logistics and organizing the accommodation and we were part of that.

**Mags Liddy:**Yeah the food.

Luca Mondo: I mean together with the Italian network, we were not organizing Genoa alone. We were the point of reference for all the Network of the radical left which was part of PGA. That was our role. And especially that conference: it was a two day conference in Milan. It was very much participated and I think that spread, I mean when all those people went back … of course I think they got information and they strengthen their work into involving local people to come to Genoa.

Terry Dunne: And some people would argue that Genoa had a negative impact on the development of the movement. Particularly in terms of the state’s violent agenda. Do you think this is the case?

Luca Mondo: Yes, that’s out of doubt.

At the same time, I feel that is because we didn’t… I have to say that I was a little surprised about, I mean, I was surprised about how the violence of the state got the movements unprepared. Because of course violence would not help them, but I was surprised that … I mean, especially in Italy, there is an experience of the hard repression by the state, I mean killing in the streets and so on. It is like, it was like, 20 years before the events of Genoa. But I felt like that this memory and this preparedness of facing this kind of repression was lost. I mean that the groups, also the senior people who were there in those years and so on, were taken off guard, by this kind of behavior.

Mags Liddy: Yeah.

Luca Mondo: So yes of course it had a bad effect, but I feel it was absolutely predictable. The state will not allow you to make a revolution, to question the state itself, without hurting you, without trying to stop you. And if you’re not obeying, forcibly doing it. So…that lack of preparedness in the sense I’m not speaking about like reacting and taking arms and so on. I’m speaking about knowing that this will happen and then, not being surprised. And dealing with the issue that, if this happens, you can use it against the state. If you are ready for it. I mean, you have to be ready to denounce the violence in a strong way. You don’t have to lose courage, you have to prepare your people, also in the sense, get them ready to deal with that. That I think we all lacked. We were not ready to face this kind of violence, even though historically it has already happened a lot of times.

Yeah. I mean. It’s like a turning point. So after Genoa in Italy, I mean, also because of the kind of process which happened in Italy. It was really surprising, very positive, very inspiring. As I, as we were saying before, I mean, in Genoa, they were from the most radical street fighter groups to the nuns, in a big umbrella. They were all against the same enemy. That was quite big. That kind of… And then it didn’t happen, like this, after. So I feel that the energy, the wind was very good. But that is the reason why they acted so brutally and so harshly, because they didn’t want this to happen. They wanted to stop it. They were shaken and they didn’t want to have any doubt that this would not continue.

Terry Dunne: They wanted to break up a coalition, break up coalitions

Luca Mondo: Yes, break up the coalition and break up this kind of, yes, solidarity among such a wide network of groups. That’s why they killed one comrade… It’s it’s it’s very sad, but, I mean, if you think about it you could see this coming. In the sense that, if you remember in Gothenburg, there was another one, they started shooting, they didn’t kill. And that happened like some months before Genoa. So, it is like you can see that it is coming. They were increasing the…

Mags Liddy: Building up…

Terry Dunne: To… to bring the questions back to Peoples’ Global Action as a kind of an international network. I’m going to generalize OK here. Yeah you could say it was an alliance between a particular type of organisation in the Global South. Yeah I’m speaking in very general terms, and a particular type of activist in the global north. There were both categories attracted to the Zapatistas.

Luca Mondo: What?

Terry Dunne: Both.. It all involved people attracted to the Zapatistas. Yeah. But coming from very different places.

Luca Mondo: The European ones?.

Terry Dunne: No Europe and the world. Yeah. Coming from very different backgrounds, very different organizational traditions. and I think that there was particularly a difference between the Global South and the Global North in this. Now that’s in general terms. What were the challenges bringing this type of an international network together?… I mean to be more specific when you’re talking about say an organization that involves tens of thousands, tens of thousands or even maybe a hundred thousand people, in comparison to kind of, individuals in the loose networks that are maybe not a representative of the society that they’re from. You know what I mean.

Luca Mondo: Yes. I mean you have to consider that in this case I mean…

OK, first of all I feel that the ground of this coalition, I mean the network, I think was the word “action” — “Peoples’ Global Action”. So why did why they choose this word — I think is because they wanted to gather people which we had a confrontational attitude towards the state and the social and political struggle. So they felt … they wanted … [sneezes] we wanted … I mean we joined the process, but they started with this word because they wanted to gather people with this kind of attitude. People who want to act towards a change. They don’t just don’t just want to speak about it, they don’t just want to do marches, they want to do [hits table]. They made a clear reference to non-violent direct action, civil disobedience as a way of acting. Respecting also other form of protest which were more strong, but keeping that practice as the umbrella for Peoples’ Global Action. So I feel this was like the glue of this different coalition at least the attempt …

For what concern, the difference between the North and the South, the South and the North. Yeah it’s true in the sense that South organizations were, are wide organisations, mass organisations with a lot of members, structures and so on, while many, the big majority of the European and North American activists were like individuals, with very small collective, loose networks and so on.

On this I have to say we were an exception in this sense because Ya Basta! is sort of a hybrid, in the sense that we are not a big mass organisation, but we are not a loose network of individuals. I mean as I was saying before we have an organisational culture, like long-term processes and long-term bonds among the members. It is not — I do a campaign and then I disappear for a while … No: I’m part of a collective. I go every week and I support the process, maybe I do less but I do it with the consistency over time.

But we were an exception. I mean fewer of the groups in Europe are like this as far as I remember. Maybe some of them were similar….

I feel that that is because of many reasons. One of it is because they’ve, I mean who started the process, they felt that if you want to get somebody who wants to act, who wants to share this wish of doing action, maybe … yeah: you don’t go for the institutional organization which are like very conditioned by the survival of the organization — they don’t want to take risks. They want to save their own structure. They don’t…. There are less organizations which want to do this kind of confrontational attitude in Europe at least.

Another thing is that I feel there was a North Europe starting of the project maybe Swiss, Germany, where this kind of individual activism is more common. Compared to Italy, Spain, Greece where it’s more common to have this kind of organizational culture and processes, maybe as PGA started more for the initiative of groups in the north of Europe, they gather activists of this type because they’re more common.

If it was born I dunno in Italy, or Spain, maybe it would have been different, so maybe that played a role in the decision of, well it was not a decision — it was just natural process. If you are in the north of Europe and you have to gather the active people you would get individuals more than groups so I think that played a role.

But yes it was a big challenge. And I mean I remember some, I also felt some time the difficulty of dealing with the process in which yeah you were giving time and space for people which were just absolutely individual and maybe coming for one time in that meeting and they were starting to speak and to speak and to speak and to speak and to speak. So also for me being a European it was difficult to fully accept this kind of horizontality in the sense that yeah, you also waste the time of everybody because somebody who is completely out of the process, they have the right to speak maybe also too much. But I was European I can imagine that some leaders from maybe other countries coming from another continent with totally different culture of organization and so on, they were probably feeling very odd in that situation. So that was a very big challenge we had to deal with.

I mean as I said before, that comes if you tried to make something new so if you tried to put together people which are different, of course you will have this kind of problems. So…

Terry Dunne: What were the ways .. were there ways or means developed of addressing this challenge? or these difficulties?

Luca Mondo: Well uhm, I think it was, it was, it was left to the common perception of the assembly, in the sense that there was a level of tolerance to this kind of over-participation of individuals, and at one point when the level was crossed, when the border was crossed naturally it was O.K. please now let the others …

At the same time, there was a level of tolerance to the opposite attitude. In the sense: very hierarchical structure, always the same people speaking and representative of the groups which were not really sharing the process inside the groups. I mean at least that was the challenge, at least that was questioned somehow, it was questioned also to us, but also to other groups. So the people who were coming from a horizontal, extreme horizontal participation culture, they were not liking this … the fact that big organizations were not allowing the different members to take, I mean it’s not that they were not allowing, but practically the people who were taking part in the process were always the same, and that they were … sometimes they [the questioning ones] were feeling that … they were not sharing the process with the organization and that was also questioned. So there were both kind of questions.

But I don’t feel that there was a code or something to deal with this issue. I feel it was more like a common feeling at one point, like the kind of tolerance to both the attitudes was not … not anymore accepting this kind of behavior. And then it was the time some criticism was starting, somebody will say … If it was an activist, an individual [always speaking], they were saying please okay let the other people speak also. Or if it was a leader who was bringing this kind of very personal managing of the teams and so on, saying: Why don’t you share with your organization? What do they think the other members of your organization? You are not translating anything of what is happening in the process …this kind of…

Terry Dunne: Was … were there … other, I mean there were problems of organisational culture. But were there broader problems of cultural differences. Just as an example perhaps, with perceptions of time. With different cultures and different ideas of time for example.

Luca Mondo: I mean I’m Italian so … we are known to be late.

Mags Liddy: We are Irish- we are the same [laughter]

Luca Mondo: We have to say maybe we were close to another concept of time, a more elastic concept of time compared to I dunno the Germans or the British. We faced this kind of difference already among the Europeans.

Terry Dunne: OK

Luca: So it was easier for me, for us to deal with this kind of differences in a wider network. And we worked a lot with Mexico, where this different concept of time is very much there. So we were used to it especially if you’re dealing with the agricultural culture, yeah, farmers’ groups, rural-based movements. It’s very common to have different ideas of what is the time. I mean the timing in the city is the second, you have to be there, in one second. The time in the countryside is the day. I mean you have to be there by evening then maybe the morning you would do whatever you have to do. So we were used to it because of this relationship, and because of our own identity as Mediterranean. And because of our relationship with the Mexicans, with Zapatistas. I mean the Zapatistas they are very sharp [about time], but they are also Mexicans.

Terry Dunne: How do how do you think People’s Global Action compares to other international organizations for example Via Campesina?

Luca Mondo: Well … they.. I mean I can speak about that those years because I cannot say what happened after 2003 and .. at that time the difference was that Peoples’ Global Action was a more radical network gathering Southern organisations as well as European activists and groups, both more prone to confrontational attitude, to implement the struggle, the purposes and so on.

And Via Campesina was more a wider network in which together which some of the groups which had this kind of attitude like the KRRS, like MST like other groups which share the same attitude but also together with other groups which were more moderate didn’t believing in this kind of strong confrontational attitude and so on. So there was also a debate inside Via Campesina about this, among the organizations, the two kinds of organizations

Mags Liddy: About their strategy?

Luca Mondo: Yeah the strategy, the methodology of the confrontational attitude and so I feel this can be definition of the difference between the two. Then with… Via Campesina was more organized, more structured, more stable. PGA was more loose, disorganized, chaotic, energetic but then not consistent. Via Campesina is still there, PGA is now, needs to restart I would say it like this

Mags Liddy: You would like it to restart, yes? or was it of its time?

Luca Mondo: Yeah I mean I feel that this is really very much the time, in which, many of the things which we said, are absolutely apparent, evident to everybody.

Chukki: What’s happening in Venezuela is continuation of PGA

Luca Mondo: So yeah of course I feel that this time would need a process of a big coalition of radical groups which are opposing this international relationship and so on. But the scenario is completely different. It’s would be much much more difficult in itself.

And in a way you should absolutely have strong local roots because the kind of nationalism which has spread all over the world now and I think it will be very difficult to like speak about international relationship if you are not trustable as a local actor, identified as somebody who is acting and doing something for your own place for your own people. [Only] then people will also accept the fact that you are also networking and you are also doing something international. In this environment nationalism is so spread out.

Terry Dunne: So that is one… and is there another lesson that you think the experience of Peoples’ Global Action could give to a new Peoples’ Global Action?

Luca Mondo: Do you mean the necessity of being rooted locally?

Terry Dunne: Yes That’s one lesson. Are there any other lessons you would draw from the experience?

Luca Mondo: Yes. Well …I have to say that I don’t share the idea, which others may believe, that if you don’t win you fail.. So I feel that every project is like a cycle. So PGA also had a cycle. I mean had the cycle lasted for some years, and so I think during this cycle there were some achievements and there were some problems.

I feel that the one very important point is that the PGA as such it is done by its member, is not PGA. I mean PGA is me, . . . is whoever was part of the process. So I don’t want to blame outside the process like PGA failed, I failed, we failed, whoever was involved in it. So the network is done by its member.

So don’t blame the network easily because you are, I mean the network is done by you also, that is one point.

Then … but, I mean … I feel that during this period, this cycle of initiative and so on, maybe some lessons or some focal point which I feel are very relevant for this kind of processes were clear. And I feel if ever something similar were to start again, It’s useful that we have gone through it and we can keep a special attention to it. Meaning … what I said before — I mean interaction between different identities, that is one point, which I feel it’s one focal point we have to keep, because if we want to face the state, the lobbies, the power we have to gather strength, and to gather strength we cannot be ourself, I mean we have to … we have to convince others, we have to deal with differences we have to find the common points, that is one focal point. I mean the capacity of finding commons among different groups is something which I feel it’s one of the focal point of whatever process of international relationship we did before and we will do in the future. That is one focal point.

Another focal point I feel yeah would be, as we were saying I mean the challenge of connecting the networking and global campaigning with local work. So I think one lesson of PGA and one focal point to keep for the future would be: You cannot be active locally without keeping a connection with the global process and vice versa. You cannot think that you will do global networking if you don’t have some roots, local works. If you don’t have a social body also. If you don’t have people in your own place which are coming together, which are working for something. I mean you have to be connected to some local process…that is one point.

And then I mean maybe one other point is economics, funding, how do you… how do you pay for the political work. So in this sense we felt that, we have… I mean our Ya Basta! experience is more used to rely on self-funding, through your social centers, self-funding by the single activists, organizing economical activities by yourself, and that will give you a part of your money. And that will be like your backbone, that is there, nobody- it’s difficult for anybody to keep you to keep it away from you because you’re doing yourself.

So that is why the social centers are a little way of funding the movement, there are restaurants, bars, you do concerts and you get subscriptions also. Or you organize cooperatives where part of the income goes also to the movements. So we were used to the idea that self funding has to be the reliable part of your economics and then you can also get external funding if you are able to do it, if you want to do it for a specific activity and so on and that will enlarge your capacity. But of course it’s a dilemma and to do self-funding you have to spend energy on it. and if you get external funding if you get the grants then you have a constraint on these grants you lose autonomy on the management of them.

So that doesn’t give a recipe to solve the problem. But it is one of the focal point of the process.

Terry Dunne: So there was an issue with funding within Peoples’ Global Action?

Luca Mondo: Not by us. I don’t know if anybody ever raised this issue, but we were surprised at the fact that it was possible to gather this kind of money through funding. We were not used to it. We were more like having a smaller budget on self-reliable sources. We had some experiences, for example of a cooperation project by the local municipalities or local administration in which they had some line of international cooperation so they were giving some money. That was the kind of funding we were used to get. But we didn’t practice this relationship with international funders and so on. That’s not something which was in our experience. I mean the results were great because if that allowed an initiative like the caravan or anything it’s … it’s really good. But we have … it was not a criticism… it was like a surprise and also some concern -in the sense that we felt it is a little fragile because it is not depending, it is not depending on you only. so whenever they switch the funds, you are cut off.

Mags Liddy: Not sustainable.

Terry Dunne: This is something to be aware of for the future. Yes? O.K.

Is there anything that you feel is important that we have not discussed?

Luca Mondo: Well … I feel … well …The kind of people who were involved in the process were wonderful people. I mean at the personal level. I feel, I mean, the big majority of the people I met in those years had the sort of really clean and selfless attitude towards politics. So that was I think the reason why there was a good energy and it was working good. I don’t think this is possible to plan it in a rational way. It happens. I don’t know. Maybe naturally the people attract similar people and so on.

But what I feel is that this kind of good trust between people. O.K. there were debates, also harsh debates but I felt … I never felt there was a sort of self-interest in it. I felt it was a genuine difference of opinions without any double strategy or hidden agenda or any of this.

I think this is something would be worthy to say. If ever I recall something else I will tell you later.

Mags Liddy: Ok That’s it.

Terry Dunne: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you very much.

Luca Mondo: You’re welcome, thank you for doing this work.