Europe

Balkans - Andre Grubacic

Interview Details

Transcript

Andre Grubacic: The PGA was a phenomenal experience because it was so international. You could hear a rumor coming from India or Nepal, while based in Eastern Europe, where I was working from. Curiously, gossip was a weird way of keeping PGA alive. It had a useful, movement-building function. The politics was very intimate. And of course, gossip and rumor have their other side, a vicious or malicious rumor which would set people apart in ways that were; especially before our PGA conferences, which were this big meeting places of transnational encounter. It was exceedingly difficult to organize things because there was so much rumor and intrigue of both kinds. The Greeks use the term hora, meaning political space. PGA was a fascinating political space.

Catalunya - Arnau Montserrat

Interview Details

Transcript

Arnau Montserrat: I’m pretty sure that I was there as a delegate or representative of MRG [Movement for Global Resistance] but I’m not totally sure maybe Enric has a better memory from that, but I think it was a formal relationship between MRG and PGA and not only personal level. Anyway, everything is also personal because with this kind of thing; at the end of the day, it works because some people are really willing and putting energy in, and we were into that coordinating efforts and being inspired.

Catalunya - Mayo Fuster-Morell

Interview Details

Transcript

Terry Dunne: We will start. You’ve already seen the questions we are interested in. I want to start with now and work backwards chronologically. So you were involved in Movimento de Resistência Global. Yeah. So I want to be maybe specific to that organisation.

Catalunya - Victor

Interview Details

Transcript

Terry Dunne: So, Victor, maybe the first thing I could ask you is how you how you started to get involved in PGA activism.

Victor: At the time of the Prague protests.

Victor: Involved; I was always left. But before we supported Zapatista solidarity.

Germany - Ann Stafford

Germany - Friederike Habermann

Interview Details

Transcript

Michael Reinsborough: This is an oral history in review around the role of Peoples’ Global Action (PGA) Network. I’m going to ask a series of questions. A lot of the stuff we’re talking about is quite far away, I wouldn’t be that concerned with dates or the specifics more or less because I think if it’s twenty years away, you won’t remember exactly what happened. We’re quite clear in acknowledging that this interview is about how people now think back about the past, and some of the actual documentary…like finding the actual documents and stuff like that, we could put some of the dates. The PGA website seems to have a lot of those dates and events. We talked a little bit about how this recording will be used, hopefully an archive of activists that will be interviewed about PGA oral history, about what the PGA did in this particular time.

Ireland - Barry Finnegan

Interview Details

Transcript

Mags Liddy: That’s great stuff so thank you for agreeing to be interviewed.

Ireland - Clare B

Ireland - Eoin Ó Broin

Interview Details

Transcript

[Note from interviewer: this interview was completed via Skype, and I did not have the recording set-up correctly in the beginning as I was using a headset. Initial 3 minutes are lost, but I did stop EOB from speaking for some time.]

Italy - Eva

Interview Details

Transcript

Mags Liddy: And we begin by asking a lot of people about their involvement with PGA. As you were saying the years that you were involved there …but maybe maybe we go a little bit back from that and tell me how did you get… and how did you become an activist, maybe going back. How did you become interested, or involved.

Italy - Luca Mondo

Interview Details

Transcript

Terry Dunne: So thanks for this Luca. I think the first thing we want to ask you just to get things started is what was your role in PGA?. What were you involved in within PGA?

Luca Mondo: Yeah. So thank you for doing this work.

Italy - Riccardo

Interview Details

Transcript

English & Italian Sonix transcription

Interviewer: First of all, thanks for taking part. And I think maybe we’ll start by asking how you first became involved in politics or in activism?

Riccardo: Nel 1977 in Italia con un grosso movimento di lotta che era il movimento dell’Autonomia Operaia. E si lavorava soprattutto nei territori e nelle fabbriche. Io ho iniziato come studente e poi piano piano ho continuato a far politica. Quindi ho iniziato a 14 anni adesso ne ho 54.

Italy & UK - 4 participants

Switzerland - Four Organizers

Interview Details

Transcript

Olivier: [00:00:01] That was the blocking of the G8 summit in Evian in 2003, remember?

Yvonne: (Yvonne)[00:00:05] It’s now recording, right?

Olivier: [00:00:12] Yeah. But yeah, that was the answer to the question of what was the last thing. At the end of PGA, this was one of the last things that was – not officially, but the blocking was essentially promoted by PGA people from all Europe. After there were other summits and blockades with participation of PGA people, such as the G8 at Gleneagles, Scotland in 2005 with the Wombles, who were inspired by PGA, or Heilegendam in 2007, but in the context of larger coalitions with ATTAC Germany for example.

Switzerland - Olivier de Marcellus

Interview Details

Transcript

Lesley Wood: All right. Its December 21st, 2022. I’m talking to Olivier de Marcellus. I want to start out with the story from your perspective, because I think I’ve heard some stories from others’ perspectives. But how did you get involved in this PGA tour? When did you first hear about this idea? What happened? How did this come about? Origin story, please?

United Kingdom - Caravan1

Interview Details

  • Region: Europe
  • Language: English
  • Interviewee: anonymous
  • Interviewer: Michael Reinsborough
  • Date: 14 October 2022
  • PGA Affiliation: Caravan
  • Bio: Participant was involved in supporting the UK caravan and organized a meeting space where Reclaim the Streets planned the J18 Action Day
  • Transcript: https:

Transcript

Speaker1: Okay, so today is October the 14th and we’re at the British Library. My name’s Michael Reinsborough, and we’re doing an interview.

Speaker2: (acknowledges)

Speaker1: Okay, great. And tell me how you first became an activist.

United Kingdom - John Jordan

Interview Details

Transcript

Michael Reinsborough: For the purpose of the tape, do you wanna say your name?

John Jordan: I’m John Jordan.

Michael Reinsborough: Okay, and I’m [redacted], and we just happen to be in London. [Redacted] gave a very marvelous talk last night, and it was in London, so I’m taking advantage of doing an interview. So this is an oral history interview and we’re not really expecting you to know dates and times. People’s memory from events that were 20 years ago are often more confusing than the actual looking at the details and some people in the oral history department have done a good amount of that kind of.. um. documentary looking at the historical details um but so it’s an interview about how you feel about things from NOW um looking back with retrospect so really that’s what you should think about but um tell me a little about how you became an activist.

United Kingdom - Michael Reinsborough

Interview Details

  • Region: North America
  • Language: English
  • Interviewee: Michael Reinsborough
  • Interviewer: Leen Amarin
  • Date: June 7 2023
  • PGA Affiliation:
  • Bio: Michael Reinsborough was involved in various Global Action Days in San Francisco, Dublin and other cities and participated in the PGA European network from 2002 onwards. He is involved in the Peoples Global Action Oral History project, and currently works in London, United Kingdom.
  • Transcript:

Transcript

Leen: Okay, so I’m going to pull up my– just will, just share my screen to share the consent form with you. And then we’ll go through that quickly together. And then we’ll get right into it.

United Kingdom - Uri Gordon

Zbrati - Russia - International Socio-ecological union

Interview Details

  • Region: Commonwealth of Independent States
  • Language:
  • Interviewee:
  • Interviewer:
  • Date:
  • PGA Affiliation: International Socio-ecological union
  • Bio:
  • Transcript: Zbrati: Ta spletna stran je škrbina za snemanje intervjuja. | To gather: This web page is a place-holder stub for an interview.

Transcript

Interviewer: bla-bla

Interviewee: la-la-la


We are currently hoping to recieve or collect an interview from this organisation.

This project does not represent the full array of movements and activists involved in PGA. Like so many activist and research projects, this one is shaped by limited social networks, and the resource imbalances and priorities within our global system.

Zbrati - The Netherlands - Eurodusnie

Interview Details

  • Region: Western Europe
  • Language:
  • Interviewee:
  • Interviewer:
  • Date:
  • PGA Affiliation: Eurodusnie
  • Bio: This was a convenor organisation within the PGA network.
  • Transcript: Zbrati: Ta spletna stran je škrbina za snemanje intervjuja. | To gather: This web page is a place-holder stub for an interview.

Transcript

Interviewer: bla-bla

Interviewee: la-la-la


We are currently hoping to recieve or collect an interview from this organisation.

This project does not represent the full array of movements and activists involved in PGA. Like so many activist and research projects, this one is shaped by limited social networks, and the resource imbalances and priorities within our global system.

Zbrati - Ukraine - International Socio-ecological union

Interview Details

  • Region: Commonwealth of Independent States
  • Language:
  • Interviewee:
  • Interviewer:
  • Date:
  • PGA Affiliation: International Socio-ecological union
  • Bio:
  • Transcript: Zbrati: Ta spletna stran je škrbina za snemanje intervjuja. | To gather: This web page is a place-holder stub for an interview.

Transcript

Interviewer: bla-bla

Interviewee: la-la-la


We are currently hoping to recieve or collect an interview from this organisation.

This project does not represent the full array of movements and activists involved in PGA. Like so many activist and research projects, this one is shaped by limited social networks, and the resource imbalances and priorities within our global system.

Zbrati - United Kingdom - Reclaim the Streets

Interview Details

  • Region: Western Europe
  • Language:
  • Interviewee:
  • Interviewer:
  • Date:
  • PGA Affiliation: Reclaim the Streets
  • Bio: This was a convenor organisation within the PGA network.
  • Transcript: Zbrati: Ta spletna stran je škrbina za snemanje intervjuja. | To gather: This web page is a place-holder stub for an interview.

Transcript

Interviewer: bla-bla

Interviewee: la-la-la


We are currently hoping to recieve or collect an interview from this organisation.

This project does not represent the full array of movements and activists involved in PGA. Like so many activist and research projects, this one is shaped by limited social networks, and the resource imbalances and priorities within our global system.

Zbratiz - Central & Eastern Europe/Commonwealth of Independent States - Various Groups


We are currently hoping to receive or collect interviews from various CEE/CIS organizations.

This project does not represent the full range of movements and activists involved in PGA. Like so many activist and research projects, this one is shaped by limited social networks and by resource imbalances and priorities within our global system.

We have interviews from just a few of the following organizations:

Central & Eastern Europe/Commonwealth of Independent States

Zbratiz - Western Europe - Various Groups


We are currently hoping to receive or collect interviews from various Western Europe organizations.

This project does not represent the full range of movements and activists involved in PGA. Like so many activist and research projects, this one is shaped by limited social networks and by resource imbalances and priorities within our global system.

We have interviews from just a few of the following organizations:

Western Europe

  • Indymedia France
  • Collectif STAMP, France
  • Collectif Friche Artistique-Autogérée, France
  • Hameau collectif,France
  • Intercontinental project, Berlin, Germany
  • AStA Technische Universitaet Berlin (students union)
  • European Network of the Marches against Unemployment, Precarity and Social Exclusion (Euromarches), Germany
  • No One Is Illegal, Germany
  • Committee Against Olympic Games, Athens, Greece
  • Italy IMC
  • Tactical Media (Italy)
  • Ya Basta (Italy)
  • Politiek Infocentrum Wageningen / Leftwing Analysis of Biopolitics (LAB), The Netherlands
  • Bangladesh People’s Solidarity Centre (BPSC), The Netherlands
  • Eurodusnie, The Netherlands
  • Play Fair Europe! Amsterdam / “Mental Defective Giraffes against Plan Colombia” / the process on gender “Nor Men Neither Women, but just the Opposite”, The Netherlands
  • Politiek Infocentrum Wageningen, The Netherlands
  • Rising Tide, Netherlands
  • Vrienden van GroenFront! (GroenFront! / EarthFirst! Netherlands Support Group), The Netherlands
  • Interculturalidade - Associação de Professores (IAP), Portugal
  • Global Action Scotland, Scotland
  • Autonomous Centre, Scotland
  • Ecologistas en Accion, Spain
  • la Red Ciudadana por la Abolición de la Deuda Externa (RCADE), Spain
  • Play Fair Europe!, Spain
  • Movimiento de Resistència Global de Catalunya (MRG), Catalunya, Spanish State
  • MRG, Madrid
  • SAC-syndikalisterna. Sweden
  • Globalisering underifrån, Sweden
  • Antifascistisk Aktion, Sweden
  • Ingen människa är illegal. Sweden
  • Foundation North-South XXI, Switzerland
  • Nord-Sued-Koordination, Switzerland
  • Action Populaire Contre la Mondialisation (APCM), Switzerland
  • People Not Profit, UK
  • Earth First!, UK
  • Reclaim The Streets! London (UK)*
  • Campaign Against the Arm Trade (UK)
  • Globalize Resistance UK
  • Colombia Solidarity Campaign, UK
  • Socialist Workers Party, UK
  • Wombles, UK

If you can help with contacts, interviews, or would like to participate in some other way, please contact us. We invite you to tell your stories and collect the ones you think need to be told. Despite the many gaps in this project, we present it with the intention of inspiring others and indicating a sample of the diversity of participation.

Italy - Riccardo

Interview Details

Transcript

English & Italian Sonix transcription

Interviewer: First of all, thanks for taking part. And I think maybe we’ll start by asking how you first became involved in politics or in activism?

Riccardo: Nel 1977 in Italia con un grosso movimento di lotta che era il movimento dell’Autonomia Operaia. E si lavorava soprattutto nei territori e nelle fabbriche. Io ho iniziato come studente e poi piano piano ho continuato a far politica. Quindi ho iniziato a 14 anni adesso ne ho 54.

Translation – of Riccardo: In 1977 with a big protest movement Autonomia Operaia (worker autonomy) in Italy, which was active, especially on the territories and in the factories. So I started as a student and then I continued to do politics. I started when I was 14 and now I’m 54.

Riccardo: Solista il quarantennale del 77. Fattii e 1977 c’èstata una radicalizzazione delle lotte che in Italia sono un movimento molto forte molto sentito e molti giovani hanno cominciato proprio negli anni settanta.

Tanslation of Riccardo: 1977 was like a turning point for Italy. It was like the year in which there was a strong radicalization of the struggle. And it was very big, very wide, very strong, the movement and many young men, young young people that started politics in that period because of this opening.

Interviewer: If I can maybe ask. Can you tell us a little of the years in between, say, the defeat of that movement, as I understand it, in the early 1980s and. The 90 to the 90s, time of the 1990s and the beginning of the Zapatistas in the beginning.

Riccardo: Il movimento degli anni 70 è stato sconfitto per due motivi. 1 grazie all’introduzione all’interno del movimento di eroina. Droga molto pesante che ha visto che vedevai compagni che andavano un po in depressione rispetto alle lotte che non c’erano più. Cadere in questo tunnel. L’altro motivo è stata la repressione che in Italia è stata fortissima con tantissimi compagni arrestati si parlava di intorno alle 40 50mila persone tra i detenuti e coloro che avevano procedimenti penali anche di un pesante. Quindi c’ès tata un’aggressione una sconfitta da parte dello Stato nei confronti dei sognatori. Ha infatti escluso l’uso.

Tanslation of Riccardo: The movement of the 70s was defeated for two reasons. One was the heroin. And I mean, the drug. Because then the spread of heroin affected the participation of the activists, of the comrades, which were like it was like a group. They are feeling depressed and then they were using the drug and then they struggle less and they’re feeling more depressed and so on, and many of them, they just disappeared in this black hole. So one was heroin, another one was repression. So the state in Italy was very harsh against the social struggle; against the movement. And in that time, the number of people either who were arrested or who had a heavy trial or have a court trial where between 40 to 50000. You need to. So a bunch of activists were strongly affected, they had to go to court or they were in jail. So there was a strong aggression by the state to the movement, and there was strong and the state was hitting the dreamers.

Riccardo: In Italia c’erano due grossi filoni politici uno legato alla lotta armata e uno all’insurrezione armata. Ogni giorno i compagni di uno dei più grandi l’organizzazione armata in Italia che erano le Brigate Rosse e c’era chi dicevano che ci voleva un’avanguardia per andare al potere per conquistare il potere. E c’era invece i movimenti tra cui il Movimento per l’Autonomia Operaia che diceva che non serviva un’avanguardia ma servivano i cittadini cioè la gente comune proletari che facevano non una rivoluzione ma un’insurrezione erano due opzioni.

Tanslation of Riccardo: There were two streams, two main streams into the radical revolutionary left at that time regarding the armed struggle. One was the belief in armed struggle, and one was the belief again of an insurrection. So the first group was the Red Brigade, in which they wanted a vanguard of people leading the process. And the other one was movements like Autonomia Operaia, in which they believed that the people, the common people should make an insurrection; a massive insurrection against the state without confining the decision of process to the vanguard.

Riccardo: Entrambe le opzioni sono state sconfitte.

Translator: Both options were defeated.

Translator: Si può dire qualcosa in più sugli Anni 80 anni 70 perché lo chiedevano l’arresto in flagranza mentre.

Riccardo: Coloro che facevano la lotta armata sono sempre più residuali. Comunque i movimenti che ciclicamente si riproducevano gli 8 9 anni e via discorrendo. Una volta era la pantera una volta era un’altra cosa il movimento antinucleare e il referendum dell'85 via discorrendo hanno continuato comunque a vedersi ad avere una propria rete. E nell'84 ci fu una grande sconfitta dei lavoratori davanti ai cancelli della Fiat. E in sostanza il movimento dell’Autonomia Operaia decise di sciogliersi e di dar vita a un’opzione diversa quella che non avevamo preso in considerazione che era quella sociale cioè ripartiamo dalla possibilità di vedere se attraverso le nuove generazioni si possa si potesse rimettere in moto un meccanismo di lotta e quindi da all'85 quindi dopo lo scioglimento dell’Autonomia Operaia nascono i centri sociali.

Translator: Those who did the armed struggle are more and more residual. However, the movements cyclically reproduced every 8 or 9 years and so on. Once it was the Panthers, once it was something else, the anti-nuclear movement and the referendum of 1985 and so on, each have continued to see each other and have their own network. And in 1984 there was a great defeat for the workers in front of the gates of Fiat. And in essence the Autonomia Operaia movement decided to disband and to give life to a different option, the one that we had not taken into consideration, which was the social one, that is, we started from the possibility of seeing if through the new generations we could set in motion a mechanism of struggle, and so from 1985, after the dissolution of the Autonomia Operaia, the social centers were established.

Translator: Ok. Cosa che dicevi delle Br che si sono marginalizzati

Riccardo: Sempre detto piano piano è finito quel percorso. Sì se non ci sono più stazioni rilevanti come Milano ma credo che l’ultima nel 93 se non vado errato.

Translator: Ci siano autori non mi sono perso un po la diffidenza che ho detto prima si sono mentre le loro si sono marginalizzati

Riccardo: È finito sono esaurite quel percorso di lotta esaurito l’altro era rimasto anche quello era esaurito. Però a 16 se riuscito ha detto proviamo a fare

Tanslation of Riccardo: I told you about the two options with armed struggle, organized vanguard or social process and general participation in insurrection. So while the first option after this state attention became marginal and it was more and more like a small or even disconnected, very social process and less active. Also the second option, which was also under regulation, was always connected with the social processes, which were gradually continuing. So they were in a crisis, but they were able to continue to connect with what was happening. And they went on to say that every like seven to eight years there was a new wave coming. And this side of the struggle was keeping a connection with the social process. And so he’s remembering like a strong student movement, which was at the beginning of the nineties or the referendum, which banned nuclear energy in Italy, which is legally banned because of the popular referendum on Mittelstadt.?

Riccardo: Quando sempre nel 1985 ci fu Chernobyl e da lì si fece un coordinamento che si chiamava coordinamento antinucleare Anti Imperialista Coordinamento Nazionale Antinucleare anti imperialista che raccoglieva un po non solo le realtà che prima facevano parte dell’autonomia ma anche la Legambiente e i movimenti antinucleare rivisti e occupò dei terreni a Montalto di Castro e da lì partì l’idea del referendum. Fu un referendum che parte dalla base cioè proprio da questi giovani

Tanslation of Riccardo: In 1985 was Chernobyl, and then in Italy there was strong opposition to the nuclear attack and the day after Autonomia Operaia connected with environmentalist groups and other groups and so on. And they viewed it as the national coordination against nuclear energy and against imperialism. So that was in 1985. There was this referendum, which was like a joint effort. It was a victory then 90 days, too. So the option of this stream of the movement was to connect with, yeah, to connect with the social process. In 1984 there was a strong defeat of the workers struggle in Fiat in Turin and the institutional trade unions were completely defeated because like.[]. So at that point, the radical groups/the movement took the initiative or of in starting a new effort, especially with the new generation, I knew it was like a new start, a new beginning for this, for this dream.

Forse possiamo ricominciare il significato il del tu magari eravamoarrivati all'84 la sconfitta della Fiat e quindi

Riccardo: Lascerà il 2018 se non necessarie

Translator: Autonomia Operaia decided to dissolve and to start a new thing. And they start the social centers, social centers. They start as a movement connected with the.

Riccardo: Quindi Roma il primo centrosociale

Translator: So first occupation in Rome

Riccardo: È proprio il primo maggio del 1985

Translator: First May 1985.

Riccardo: In cui è il giorno che arriva la nube da Chernobyl

Translator: By chance the same day which Chernobyl’s all out arrives .. .

Riccardo: Per cui nasce il Coordinamento Nazionale Antinucleare nel

Translator: I sat in that in that occasion it starts.

Riccardo: Sì da lì noi praticamente siamo passati nel 1985 da manifestazioni fatte in 50 100 persone a livello nazionale perché erano molto represse le nostre manifestazioni e c’era molta paura che c’erano tantissimi arresti a manifestazioni anche per i tempi erano incredibili anche le 500 persone che adesso sembrano numeri piccoli ma poi piano piano. Quando questi centri sociali nascono un po dappertutto e si coordinano creano un movimento vero.

Translator: So after this decision of opening the social center setting, this new process with the social center connected with the [toilet], the writer is opening the spaces for the []. The numbers of the marchers, they start to increase, so after this big crisis where it was like normal to have 50 or 100 people in a national demonstration because people were scared and a lot of people were arrested and there were a lot of attention. That became like 10 times more like five hundred, which now it’s not much, but for that time it was looking at.

Riccardo: Però il salto vero di massa diciamo di questo movimento nasce nel 1991 quando viene occupato a Milano. Dentro questa ipotesi apriamo centri sociali dappertutto a Milano. Non è bello così dirla viene sgombrato il Leoncavallo.

Translator: So did the jump in this process, since 85, there was a good growth, but there is like a jump. Another turning point jump positive was 91, 1991. when Leoncavallo, the social center of Milano is evicted.

Riccardo: E vienepreso a simbolo da tutti i giovani dei centri sociali di tutta Italia.

Translator: it had become the symbol of all the social centers of Italy. It is taken as a symbol of their struggles.

Riccardo: E il Leoncavallo rappresenta per tutti questo simbolo e in sostanza tutti diventano Leoncavallo in modo più o meno e per la prima volta si torna dei numeri diciamo un po di movimento quindi a portare migliaia di persone in piazza ad esempio da Roma siamo partiti. Mi ricordo che ad agosto ero in radio avevo fatto l’appello e in pochigiorni 2 3 giorni siamo partiti con dieci pullman da Roma che era una roba.

Translator: So the numbers start to be thousands. It’s not hundreds anymore. Now it’s thousands. And he moves from Roma. He lived in Roma a lot, for many years and then he shifted. At the time, he was still in Roma, and he remembered making a radio appeal and in 2 or 3 days they were able to move to mobilize from Rome to Milan. Ten buses in two days which was something.

Riccardo: Che sta sfociando fino ad anni prima in tutta Italia. Noi portavamo massimo 200

Translator: Right before I told the whole gathering before the network was some hundreds of people, just from Rome, it was 500 that operation. So the numbers increased.

Riccardo: Questo è un passaggio importante per tutto il movimento e ci rendiamo conto che possiamo incidere ancora.

Translator: All right. So that gives us hope that still we can be relevant.

Riccardo: Togliendosi un pezzo della nostra identità rimanendo però dentro quello che siamo. Quindi non più. L’organizzazione ma un’organizzazione diffusa e diversa tra di loro perché i centri sociali vengono in sostanza occupate da tutte le aree. Anche qualcuno di quelle che dice coprivano bene o male avevano quell’indirizzo.

Translator: So they understand that by renouncing part of your identity, you are able to connect and to make a wider network with audience identity. And that was something which was so that’s why the numbers are growing, because other people are also because it’s not so identity, so sectarian, it’s not identity in the sense that you are not strictly homogeneous because you are, you open up to other people, so you have to renounce part of your affiliation, this identity in this sense. So that was something which the social centers were based on. They were squatted and occupied by all the areas. They were open to all the areas, including some of the areas in some cases, which still believed in armed struggle. But that was quite so.

Riccardo: Non è il bello è che non c’erano solo centri sociali di ispirazione anarchica di ispirazione comunista sinistra stalinista marxista. Anche i ragazzi del quartiere vedendo un esempio prendono e occupano cioè magari un 10 15 ragazzotti più o meno. Non politicizzati prendono e si occupano il loro spazio quindi diventa una rete diffusa in tutto il paese.

Translator: The good thing is that there were not only social centers of anarchist-inspired, communist, leftist, Stalinist or Marxist. Even the kids in the neighborhood seeing an example take and occupy that is, maybe 10-15 kids more or less. Non-politicized take and occupy their space then it becomes a network spread across the country.

Riccardo: Che faccio qui ad esempio a Milano c’è un centro sociale vegano

Translator: For example, now in Milano, but is a social center, which is a vegan society. So it does vegan or vegan food. So they don’t have like a political ideology. So that was the point. This kind of struggle was activating people also irrespective of their ideology but also people which were not ideologically deep into politics, but were just interested to do something new.

Interviewer: And while this was happening and the traditional left was collapsing and the Italian Communist Party and also was the fall of the Soviet Union. So what impact did this have on the radical left in the group? Mm-hmm.

Translator: dice quegli anni quando questo stava succedendo. Erano gli anni in cui il partito comunista ufficiale stava collassando e anche l’Unione Sovietica stava collassando. Qual è stato l’effetto la conseguenza sul movimento.

Riccardo: Ma fermo restando che qua in Italia il movimento non ha mai avuto relazioni o non è mai stato filorusso

Translator: Here in Italy, the movement never was pro-Russian,

Riccardo: Ok per cui mentre per un’aria sì e l’altra no c’era chi era filorusso in questo paese però diciamo che il movimento vedeva questi due blocchi contrapposti come due blocchi comunque imperialisti

Translator: So some groups they had solidarity with the Soviet Union, but the majority of the movement was looking at the two imperialist blocs as two conflicting Imperialisms. Are not supporting one bloc against the other.

Riccardo: Quindi non credo che ci siastatanessuntipo di influenza sui cambiamenti che sono accaduti dalla caduta del muro o in Unione Sovietica non erano influenti sulle modalità di movimento che noi costruivaamo proprio non ci fermiamo non abbiamo mai fatto un documento chepartiva dalla crisi dell’UnioneSovietica.

Translator: So it was not like an ideological reference, the Soviet Union, so the movement didn’t take Soviet Union like one big. I mean, I was told they were feeling that it was one imperialist bloc. So for example he said, I believe that we never did political document analyzing the fall of the Soviet Union.

Interviewer: Ok. So the movement was growing. Through the social centres and then in that movement in 1994, what was people’s reception of the Zapatistas in chiapas?

Riccardo: E prima che arrivano gli zapatista succede qualcosa succede che a Seattle c’è un movimento che è molto interessante. Giusto quello prima dicevo

Riccardo: Confuso e confuso. Succede che c’è un movimento in Italia che è composito e che si parla che ricomincia a parlare di zapatista hanno questa. Ci danno un’occasione magnifica

Translator: Yeah, there is this movement, which is heterogeneous, as we’ve seen before, and it’s starting to become dynamic and it’s growing. So the Zapatistas, in that situation, they gave a wonderful opportunity.

Riccardo: L’opportunità è quella di andare a conoscere questo popolo che questo popolo di lotta. Che coniuga un primo incontro. Devo essere sincero noi eravamo molto titubanti.

Translator: So the Zapatistas call for the first international meeting. And invite every contact to meet with the experience of people; struggle for people who struggle. Listen, they were hesitant. He’s saying that they were quite hesitant.

Riccardo: Cosa che accade e che tre aree importanti del movimento che non parlavano da anni però si guardavano. L’Italia era divisa in tre grosse aree una era quella del Nord e una era quella di Roma cioè Roma e Padova e Milano era sempre un po il baricentro delle lotte e via discorrendo però Milano aveva avuto il Leoncavallo lo sgombero che aveva un po rimesso insieme gli interessi di tutti.

Translator: So there were three main areas in the network, Autonomy Operaia, social centers movement that hadn’t spoken in years but were looking at each other. Uh, one was Rome, one was the Northeast and one was Milan. So they were like three areas which they don’t have a strong identity and network and differences, and Milano was a sort of middle point between Rome and the northeast. Because of this 1991 Leoncavallo solidarity, it was that it had really like three unified in the practice without a real formal organization. But in the battle, in this struggle because of the Milano solidarity marches of the network. The Autonomy Operaio network.

Riccardo: Controllate che Milano era la città in cui tutte le settimane c’era una manifestazione tutti i sabati il Leoncavallo scendeva in piazza e attraversava Milano i mille due mila persone per mille motivi diversi. Però era una realtà viva e quindi sia Roma che Milano erano molto interessate a capire cosa succedeva a Milano e Padova.

Riccardo: E Padova. So ma perché io a quei tempi ero a Milano era spostata da Roma a Milano

Translator: This is the time when Riccardo moved to Milan. And that is the time where you have to understand that every week there was a march by Leoncavallo in the sense that for one reason, for another reason, there are continuously active, continuously calling for struggle, continuously involving people. So it was also an interesting experience, and in their own minds, part of an anarchist network, of course, interested in what was happening because this was this kind of strong dynamic. Series of them.

Riccardo: Succede che in Chiapas ci incontriamo tutti

Translator: So in Chiapas everybody comes

Riccardo: In Chiapas se si decide con il Zapatista di dar vita a un’associazione

Translator: So we decide with the Zapatistas to start an association.

Riccardo: Che l’associazione che si chiamava Ya Basta

Translator: Which is the Ya Basta association.

Riccardo: E questa associazione rimette insieme i tre pezzi

Riccardo: Anche perché tra noi eravamo comunque amici perché avevamo fatto precedentemente delle lotte insieme poi ci siamo divisi per questioni politiche e per la repressione

Translator: In this association, also formally the three networks are together they become part of the same network. Okay, so in a formal structure, because I mean, there was a personal bond, there was I mean, we were not strangers to each other. We shared many struggles together. It was, of course, a kind of trust. But at the same time, because of the repression, because of the necessity of local struggle and because of differences on some ideological point, we were apart. So it goes, what? So this common experience made it easy to come together with common political interests, common political goals.

Riccardo: Comunque questo network li mette insieme intorno alle questioni dello zapatismo che ponevano zapatismo tutti i pezzi che erano dispersi dalle Marche all’Emilia Romagna al Piemonte a tutto ciò che era disperso o che era rimasto anche minimale aderisce a Ya Basta costituisce insieme a noi questa rete nazionale di trasformazione nazionale.

Translator: Milan, North East and Rome, also the very radical groups, small groups, either they were isolated or they were marginal, or they were lost in their own local struggle and so on. However this network puts them together around the issues of Zapatismo all the pieces that were dispersed from Marche to Emilia Romagna to Piedmont so all that was dispersed or remained even minimally, adheres to Ya Basta and constitutes together with us this national network of national transformation.

Interviewer: And. So just for clarity. Is it that Chiapas brought you together and meaning Chiapas as a metaphor, or did this actually happen in Chiapas?

Riccardo: O fisicamente trovati Chiapas. C’era Vilma, Celeste dei compagni di Roma e magari

Translator: Anche tutta d’un solo in parte sì

Riccardo: C’è tutto. Sì sì giusto che sarei molto fisica eravamo fisicamente nello stesso Caracol.

Translator: Both yeah, there was the occasion of being physically all together in Chiapas in the same Caracol: at the center of coordination of the struggle of the Zapatistas. So we were all together in the same place in Chiapas as well as there was a general support for the ideological path. So there was a shared; they were wishing to support the same thing, but physically there was also the concrete experience of being all together.

Riccardo: In piu c’era un altro fattore …

Translator: He was saying that before that, the idea was also discussed with the Zapatistas. So it was also a meeting in Chiapas and also the project was also discussed in Chiapas within the process of building this network of solidarity. Ok. Ok.

Riccardo: Faccio una cosa in più che il Leoncavallo di Milano che era un po un lago. Mediatore tra il Nord e il Sud nel rapporto con gli Zapatisti assumono grossa autorevolezza e quindi sia Roma che Padova usò questo termine usano il Leoncavallo per riprendere un percorso comune. Cioè mentre prima l’autorevolezza ce l’aveva o Roma o Padova. Sulla questione dello zapatismo l’autorevolezza ce l’aveva a Milano per tutta una serie di questioni e di relazioni che nascono addirittura prima del 1994. E per cui se a Padova e Roma si avvicinano Milano e Milano pone però una questione importante se vogliamo lavorare insieme ci costiuiamo e l’associazione. Perché era quello che ci chiedevano gli zapatista di lavorare insieme.

Translator: So. Yeah. So what is happening is that, I mean, as Milano. was the middle point, which was like more close to both Padua and Rome,

Lisa – Translator: I’ll say one more thing that the Leoncavallo of Milan which was a bit of a mediator between North and South in the relationship with the Zapatistas. It took on great authority and then both Rome and Padua used this used the Leoncavallo to resume a common path. That is, while before Rome or Padua had the authority, on the issue of Zapatismo, the authoritativeness was in Milan for a whole series of issues and relationships that were born even before 1994. And so if Padua and Rome are approached by Milan and Milan, however, poses an important question if we want to work together if we want to work together let’s form an association. Because that’s what the Zapatistas were asking us to do, to work together.

Riccardo: Milanesi si vedevano coi padovani i romani si vedevano in modo anonimo i padovani milanesi che i padovani i romani lo sa bene fra

Translator: So basically, yeah, Milano was able to keep a relationship with both the other two main areas and the two main areas, their differences, and they were not going along with. So what happened was that in the case of the Zapatistas, The Milano group was having a strong relationship with them because they were relationship even before the 94. So as the process of approaching the Zapatistas of having the relationship of supporting them was like led by young. That automatically became a process which was recognized and acknowledged by both the areas.

Riccardo: E fa una pausa di mezz’ora…

transcript continues

Interviewer: Just one clarification about the reception of the Zapatistas. You said that the movement in Italy had some doubts. Or there was..?

Translator: Maybe. No, I think it was because of these internal differences, more than the Zapatistas. But I will ask him.

Riccardo: Perche. Non riusciamo ancora a inquadrare qual era il messaggio che arrivava dal Chiapas l’essere stati però invitati prima dell’incontro intercontinentale dal subcomandante a fare un confronto politico ha sciolto diciamo il nodo perché prima di buttarci il cuore l’anima di tutto quanto volevamo capire meglio cos’era questa rivolta zapatista non l’avevamo compreso nei termini con cui loro l’hanno poi declamata al mondo

Translator: Ecco spiegato capire che cosa cose erano le cose su cui eravate appunto

Riccardo: Non capivamo che tipo di rivolta era ed era rivolta a chi voleva andare al potere che voleva cambiare erano dei messaggi che per le nostre vecchie categorie di ragionamento erano difficili da interpretare e quindi ad esempio qui a Milano i primi chehanno sostenuto il zapatismo erano i lavoratori dell’Alfa Romeo noi ancora no. Noi abbiamo impiegato due o tre mesi dopo il primo gennaio per dire per sciogliere questo no

Translator: Ok, so they were skeptical. What did I say before hesitancy? more than skepticism, hesitancy. It was because it was different. It was difficult to frame the proposal because it was a new thing, so it was difficult to use the usual interpretation to analyze it and to understand, to comprehend it. So they had this, this confusion. They wanted to understand what kind of proposal it was, the relationship with power. So they wanted to understand and that helped. I mean that led to a meeting with the Subcomandante Marcos before the international, the intercontinental meeting and that made it possible to understand that too. And for example, he’s saying that, for example, the first solidarity in Milano for the Zapatistas was by the workers of the Alfa Romeo factory, and the social centers were like waiting for some months before the 1st of January 1994. Because of this necessity of understanding and then when they had this understanding, they were able to introduce new, new ideas, which were part of the proposal and made them also part of their own understanding. And then they supported also.

Interviewer (Terry): Yeah, and we’ll move on from the Zapatistas shortly. But what was the attractiveness of the Zapatista message? But what was the new thing?

Translator: Tra poco ci muoviamo diciamo andiamo oltre gli zapatista ma ancora sul zapatismo qual era diciamo l’attrattiva degli zapatista e che cosa rendeva il loro proposta interessante

Riccardo: Al pari del 1977 quando c’erano due formazioni una che voleva fare la rivoluzion e l’altra voleva fare l’insurrezione e quindi portare la coscienza tra tre lavoratori cittadini. Ci siamo molto più riconosciuti in quella in cui era il popolo che prendeva le armi e non un’avanguardia che prendeva il potere. E questa è stata la scelta giusta per noi perché ci ritrovavamo molto in questa modalità di fare politica che era la vostra in maniera diversa perché noi dentro la metropoli loro dentro le montagne la giungla per ora questo il concetto quello dell’autonomia

Translator: Yeah, so there was a closeness like. Yeah, they were sharing the same idea of an insurrection and a social process for the struggle of the people. Also in terms of armed struggle compared to the vanguardist revolutionary approach. So that is what also the Zapatistas were proposing. So that was some point of contact, which they felt it was shared but in a different way because we were in the cities and they were in the mountains and jungles, so there was a concept of autonomy…

Riccardo: Da lì da quel gennaio 94 96 in poi sono saliti su a fare il primo incontro nasceYa Basta e nasce un’aria un aria che dentro il paese nei movimenti diventa egemone. Il movimento dei Disobbedienti delle tute bianche.

Translator: So from that experience in 1996 starts Ya basta. And that is one one area, one group inside the movement, which becomes hegemonic inside the autonomous movement, and it will that area, that network will take also the the name and also take up struggles, specific struggles and also wider, not coincidentally, but it was the same area that was added to the white overalls Tutti Bianchi and disobedients. Yeah, yeah.

Riccardo: Che nasconda il vasto

Translator: They are born from Ya Basta and from the same kind of network. And.

Interviewer: Ok, I want to move on now to the period of people’s global action. I wanted to ask you what we think People’s Global Action did well. Yeah. And what was its success? Yeah.

Riccardo: So quello che dice quindi muovendosi verso gli anni di azione globale dei popoli. Una considerazione che lui fa e che gli sembra quasi sorprendente che Ya basta non abbia fatto parte di azione globale dei popoli fin dall’inizio probabilmente era soltanto un caso o le persone non erano non si conoscevano qualcosa. E comunque dice voleva. La domanda che fa è che cosa lui pensa che cosa tu pensi che possa essere considerato un successo una cosa che ha funzionato una cosa positiva di azione globale dei popoli.

Secondo me l’azione globale dei popoli ha avuto una. Un lato molto positivo quello di rispettare le forme diverse di lotta all’interno dei movimenti cosa che ad esempio qui in Italia sono a tutt’oggi molto complicate come relazioni. L’azione globale dei popoli già a Praga credo si decise di manifestare in tre blocchi. Che quindi con un minimo unico nemico. Però con tre forme diverse di combatterlo. Mentre dopo un solo giorno anni

Translator: So he feels that one very strong success of People’s Global Action was to allow mutual respect among the different ways of struggle. Which actually has always been a problem in Italy, and it is still a difficult challenge in the relationship between the movements at the present time also. But, for example, in Prague. Uh, there was this practice of having one common enemy, but three different ways of fighting against this enemy in a synchronized, coordinated way. But respecting the differences.

Riccardo: Oggi qua c’è una riunione. In cui ritroviamo. In cui noi come sindacato non vogliamo aderire alla manifestazione del 20. Però i nostri compagni migranti sono venuti qua dicendo che per loro è una pazzia perché non possiamo lasciare quella piazza al Pd e a chi ha costruito una legge che la legge Minnitti-Orlando contro di loro. E ci hanno invitato a riflettere molto bene e a trovare un percorso che non è quel percorso ma ma. Ad esempio marcare una distanza una differenza di oggi abbiamo trovato la distanza una differenza di noi insieme a loro non finiremo nella piazza del Pd. Andremo in Darsena non so quanti saranno. Avremo un altro pezzo di corteo perché. E pensiamo di portarci una barca un barcone rappresentare quello che è la legge che loro hanno così costruito. Insomma una modalità che ad esempio se non mette insieme i pezzi si rimane con le proprie convinzioni allora lo sforzo che noi abbiamo imparato sia dagli zapatista ma anche l’azione globale dei popoli non è pensare che noi abbiamo sempre ragione. Anche ascoltare e magari modificare il proprio il proprio pensiero. Io ero molto contrario ad esempio però poi alla fine abbiamo trovato un punto di equilibrio per starci dentro che non è star dentro ai loro appelli ma stare dentro ai nostri modi di far politica di rappresentare di di contestare e di non condividere quel pezzo la e farne un’altro

Translator: Ok. He was telling an example of what was that process of, including the differences and keeping respect between different ways of struggle. He’s mentioning these same meetings, which were happening in this room. This morning, so he was saying that, for example, in this case, there is a day of protest. Demonstration in solidarity with the migrants, which is organized by the municipality, which is led by the same party, which is implementing discriminatory laws against the migrants. So it’s sort of, yeah, I was trying to keep a leftist identity while in reality there was implementing this kind of discriminatory laws.

And so they as the trade unionists he and all the other comrades which are inside the trade union. They were very against the idea of taking part in this march. Because they were feeling. Yeah, it’s a negotiation. But as they met with their own migrants, activists and their grassroots, and they were all saying it would be madness not to be at the march and leave the march to only this party and these groups. They absolutely wanted to be part of it, so they pushed for finding a way. So that kind of exchange/debate led to the idea of having a participation in the march, which will be strongly marked with a difference in messages, and they will not end up in the same gathering where all the march would conclude. They will continue further and they will finish their initiative, enacting this boat, sinking or whatever within the canal.

Yeah. So he is quoting it as an example of what the Zapatista were saying, as well as PGA also not to assume that we are always right. That you are the one who has the truth, but to listen and to be able to find an agreement among your fellow different comrades in the struggle. Mm hmm. Yes. One of the one of the slogans of the Zapatistas is to walk questioning, make questions and not not thinking that you have the truth, but seeing what is happening and question always what you are doing. be ready to. Find new answers to what you are doing.

Interviewer: And I want to ask what impact the experience of being involved in PGA had locally here in Italy? How did it change the movement here in any way?

Translator: Si chiede specificamente quale secondo te è stato diciamo l’effetto della partecipazione in Italia alle iniziative di azione globale dei popoli sul panorama italiano sulla realtà italiana. Quale. Quale tipo di effetto c’è stato per il fatto che un gruppo italiano fosse parte di queste iniziative

Riccardo: Ci misero fuori dubbio che c’era un gruppo italiano che faceva parte delle iniziative dell’azione globale dei popoli ma non ne abbiamo avuto la capacità con l’Italia di affermare questa convergenza. Invece abbiamo affermato vi erano dei percorsi. Più della nostra area della rete disobbediente cioè non siamo andati a Praga come a GP ma siamo venuti a Praga nonostante avevamo relazioni la GP con noi disobbedienti c’era il movimento delleTute bianche che andava a Praga sull’azione globale dei popoli. In Italia vengono processati secondo me un errore

Riccardo: Posso dire che per capire meglio prima di tradurre cioè vuoi dire che la nostra partecipazione al globale di popolo è stata una partecipazione a un network europeo in cui ci interfacevamo anche con realtà differenti eccetera però a livello italiano non siamo non abbiamo fatto la stessa pratica a livello italiano di incontro tra differenti non abbia avuto la stessa apertura.

Translator: No non lo abbiamo fatto ma non come abbiamo fatto per Genova ad esempio

Riccardo: C’è un problema se anche il metodo

Translator: No lui però ha fatto un altro domanda

Riccardo: Sì però dico come sono

Translator: Vissuta da parte molto partecipe e

Riccardo: Rilevante cioè mi sento come se tu pensi che il metodo è stato lo stesso. Però la forma cioè quando noi partecipiamo all’azione globale dei popoli non ci partecipavano come un gruppo di azione globale dei popoli ma come i Disobbedienti italiani come le tute bianche. Questo lo voglio dire è forse è stato questo un errore non far partecipare la gente come abbiamo fatto ad esempio come Ya Basta. Non abbiamo non abbiamo fatto sì che diventasse un pezzo italiano che è anche. Ma non è successo

Translator: In nessun paese europeo.

Riccardo: Quindi tu stai dicendo che è sostanzialmente un limite. Diciamo che è mancato il fatto che la azione globale dei popoli avesse una visibilità maggiore. Giusto perché abbiamo mantenuto l’identità no.

Translator: Ognuno deve la sua identità però

Translator: Ok, I have to understand. Yeah, so he is he is feeling that as every group including, I mean, for sure, us and I feel also many other groups inside the PGA were taking part in the coordination at the European level using, I mean, which was defined as PGA. But in their country were keeping the local identities and all the local names. So that didn’t give enough visibility to what was the international network because all the people which were like not really inside the process were not really knowing that this international coordination was had a name had the manifesto or had a structure. It was not just an occasional meeting of international movement, it was something which had more consistency and a process which had different steps and so on. This was not visible enough for people inside our country and also other countries. So that left less visibility to the network, also deeply in the in the local activists.

Interviewer: So one thing that PGA could have done better is if the network had a greater visibility. Yeah. And is there any other things that it that it could have done better or OK?

Translator: it - So when exactly this new era of visibility, all network internet basically and a sense of altruism to the cause to see an opportunity to simple and important? He feels this is the one he feels is the most important.

Translator: Yeah, so he feels that everybody brought their own experience. But then it was not possible to build something really common and new because then everybody went back to its own experience. So that common new, wider thing was not strong enough and was not taken as a strong project also by all the members, including us. Mm hmm. So that was lacking. It’s another way of saying what you were saying before, but it’s also adding meaning. And they are that also that would also strengthen the feeling of belonging of the of the individuals in the sense that if you if you if you keep a priority to make evident that there is this international narrative as opposed to the normal activities which they can for the margins, then they will also spread this perception and give strength to this common project.

Uh huh.. And.

Interviewer: And I want to ask now. What legacy did the movements and networks and protests of this period of 1999, 2000, 2001 leave for the situation post 2008 post the crash and into the age of austerity

Translator: Senza di lui dice dopo la crisi del 2008 e diciamo la crisi dell’austerità e di questi ultimi anni che cosa secondo te è la possibile connessione con quel ciclo di lotte tra il 99 e il 2000 2001. Secondo te c’è una connessione quale può essere.

Riccardo: Bella domanda nel 98 dal 2006

Translator: Vuol dire si vuol dire che vuol dire Seattle, G-8 vuol dire Praga, Genova…

Riccardo: Ma lui come crisi intende la crisi economica una crisi sistemica qualche tipo

Translator: Si dice anche nelle lotte sociali che ci sono state e la situazione attuale in cui ci si ci siconfronta dopo la crisi. Se i movimenti si confrontano allora cambia. Quali possono essere i punti di continuità o di contatto con quell’esperienza.

Riccardo: Noi abbiamo imparato delle cose. Che l’essere meticcio costruire spazi di meticciato politico è importante.

Translator: We learned some things. Being “meticcio” creates spaces, mixing politically is important. Meticcio is the word that you use for people, which is for a mix of races you have half Caucasian, half African or half Asian. So being ideological mix, it is something which is positive.

Riccardo: Che abbiamo dell’interconnessioni tra diverse modalità di vedere di intendere la politica di fare la politica questo è dovuto anche da diverse culture che si stanno interaffacciando dei movimenti

Translator: So there are different cultures which are relating in a movement and that gives different points of view and different approaches to struggle in politics.

Riccardo: E questo mette in discussione l’operato l’identità le convinzioni di tutti quelli che fanno ancora politica

Translator: And this put under debate and the question the way of practice, I mean the way of doing politics and the ideas. So it’s always a process with which put under discussion or whatever is assumed as being a consolidated truth.

Riccardo: Non ho capito che nessuno è autosufficiente.

Translator: Nobody is self-sufficient. We understood that nobody is self-sufficient.

Riccardo: E anche nomadi nella politica per cui io faccio sindacato oggi più tardi la riunione sull’occupazione un’occupazione ho delle relazioni con imigranti. Non faccio più una cosa sola

Translator: We are also political nomads. We have not any more doing only one thing. Now I’m in a trade union. Later on, I will go in a squat where housing, housing occupation is there, so I’m not doing any one thing, only I’m doing different, different things.

Riccardo: E ci sono degli organismi questo è uno come il sindacato che cerca di tenere insieme questi pezzi

Translator: And there are like organizations which are trying to keep together all these different fields. This one is one that the trade union is an attempt to create a political coordination between different experiences

Riccardo: Mettendo insieme. Pensi che è impensabile che stiano insieme

Translator: Putting together sections which are hardly believable that they can stay together,

Riccardo: Dei lavoratori della logistica quelli della sanità i taxist i imigranti i rifugiati gli student

Translator: the logistics workers, together with the health system workers, together with the taxi driver and the migrants and the students.

Riccardo: E questo è un fatto positivo che abbiamo imparato da La Zapatismo dall’AGP la modalità di forme di rispetto delle diversità.

Translator: This is something which we learned from the Zapatistas, from People’s Global Action.

Riccardo: Questo non vuol dire che siamo verso una ricomposizione.

Translator: This respect of diversity, that doesn’t mean that we are headed towards a convergence or coming together.

Riccardo: Proprio blocco sociale nostro di riferimento prima era l’operaio di Autonomia Operaia poi è stato il giovane. Poi è stato il sindacato poi sono migranti Noi abbiamo costruito un blocco sociale che meticcio. Non è più lavoro sulle operaie lavoro sull’immigrazione lavoro sulla discarica lavoro su la qualità della vita e dell’ambiente che. Si si è trasformato e si è assunto un pezzo senza copiarlo e senza fare l’errore che è stato fatto a Genova

Translator: Aspetto perché sennò diventa complicato. Cominciamo a capirci su questo. Se tu stai dicendo che Autonomia Operaia all’inizio era concentrata sugli operai poi centri sociali è stata centrata sui giovani e poi gradualmente dopo il negli anni 90 si è cominciato a fare un discorso più

Riccardo: Ampio piano multiforme.

Translator: So he sees that there was like a transformation from the seventies where Autonomia Operaia was was put in the center of their reflection and action the workers, then the social center where the youth. After the 80s in the 90s, starting from the nineties with the Zapatista also PGA also. it was more like interceptors in the sense. Not not anymore one leading force, one leading sector, but the idea of, I think, different sectors which are which are in contact and which are and different struggles. So a complexity of struggles and sectors. Ok.

Riccardo: Cooptazione sì l’errore ad esempio di Genova è che qualcuno ha pensato che quel movimento di Genova poteva essere cooptato per diventare qualcosa del proprio cioè portare via e quindi alcuni sono stati cooptati da questo partito che era Rifondazione comunista che dopo aver fatto questo errore è scomparsa.

Riccardo: Non ce n’è più traccia so che ho avuto un’esplosione ma poi un implosione. Perché quello che I movimenti volevano non era una roba alla…Traduco,

Translator: So the approach is to build this kind of composite bloc, coordination of different sectors and avoiding cooptation. And this is what happened after Genoa, because a party which is a reformed communist tried to like, capture politically that movement with some candidates in the Parliament. And after that, uh, they had a growth, and then they disappeared, because that was not what the movement wanted. So he’s saying that the approach is to include different sectors and being active in different fields, but without trying to control and catch these only for your own self-interest, because that is what they tried to do. Mm hmm. So building a common space, but without keeping your own self interest hidden agenda, I feel that can be the ways.

Interviewer: So you’ve come in a sense and you’ve gone back to before nineteen eighty five. Yeah. And this is a union and this is orientated to the workers movement. But in a changed way through the experience of the social centres and Ya Basta and the Zapatistas and the PGA. This is now. A union which is different; which orients itself to different sectors of migrants.

Translator: Just to understand your question, because he never quit to be a trade unionist. He has been a trade unionist also during those years.

Interviewer: But this is a bigger focus now. Yeah. This is the main focus now, but it’s the main focus in a different way?

Translator: Shall I ask him if the approach towards trade union, what was the specific change in the trade union work?

Interviewer: Yeah. And maybe that and to expand on how this union works today and what?

Translator: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Interviewer: So what has been the change in the trade union work on what this what this does now?

Translator: So quello che chiede se vuoi spiegare come tu pensi che questo tipo di trasformazione di evoluzione storica di passaggi si è diciamo orsosi è anche verificato all’interno del sindacato di base cioè come fare sindacato di base anche in qualche modo si sia evoluto tra gli anni 80 90 e adesso anche in relazione con queste trasformazioni generali del fare politica cioè. E anche che cosa è specifico adesso. Si è vista sta facendo per un collegamento. No nel senso in generale e in particolare collegandolo a questo generale diciamo riflessione sui cambiamenti del fare anche sindacato e del fare politica in generale.

Riccardo: Un rapporto da due soldi

Translator: Let’s start from USB

Riccardo: Noi sono dieci anni che parliamo di sindacato sociale. Un senso o il Mercato Metropolitano

Translator: Since 10 years, we are speaking about social trade unions or metropolitan trade unions.

Riccardo: Cercando anche di capire come coniugare una forma. Sindacale. Cerchiamo di capire chi è quello che come uno può fare il sindacato sociale..

Translator: It I mean, not only an ideological debate in the sense that a trade union has to have, I mean, workers members cannot be just a group of intellectuals. They have to be present working. We are trying to understand how to form a social trade union.

Riccardo: Percorso di trasformazione del lavorosono state importanti sia per quanto riguarda i diritti sia per quanto riguarda le forme del lavoro

Translator: Also, because the work, I mean, the way of working has changed a lot in terms of the way the people are working, as well as the rights of the workers.

Riccardo: Ma non basta. Noi crediamo ne siamo convinti di questo ovvero che stiamo crescendo moltissimo che la fabbrica fordista non esiste più però esiste il lavoro diffuse nel territorio nelle sue mille forme.

Translator: We believe and we feel that this belief is true because we are getting a big rise in our membership. We are growing as a trade union, so we believe that this idea is true that the traditional Fordist factory doesn’t exist anymore, but exists spread production in the territory. The production the way of production is spread is not more concerned to concentrate in one for this factory, but it’s it’s like spread in the territory

Riccardo: Ad esempio quando attraverso ASEA che è una struttura di USB si occupano le case e palazzi. E all’interno di quei palazzi occupati dalle famiglie ci sono lavoratori. E a loro volta aderiscono al sindaca toma non perché sono occupanti di casa di ubriachi? ma perché la rete che abbiamo costruito è una rete che ci permette di dire che questo modo di fare sindacato non è il modo degli altri sindacati di Stato e quindi si riconoscono molto di più in un sindacato che fa conflitto che è un sindacato che ti offre servizi e basta.

Translator: So, for example, what is happening with one of the sections of the trade union, ASEA is is is a section which deal with housing in the sense of also squatting apartments, which are empty for the people which are in need and support this occupation and so on. What is happening is that the people which are squatting the apartments, then they are also workers. They work and they need to fight for their own rights as workers, so together to be in struggle for their house, they are also fighting in struggle for the work condition and they also become members of the trade union because of what the work. I mean, the struggle of the work is. So because because they understand that it is, it is more important. I mean, they believe that the traditional reformist approach to trade union, it’s not effective. And the idea that they offer some services is not enough. They feel that it is needed to have a confrontational approach to defend the workers rights also, as well as to get the house because how I mean squatting is not a moderate tradition.

Riccardo: Moderato 4 il 4 dicembre qui in Italia c’è stato un referendum sulla riforma costituzionale. E USB è l’unico sindacato che ha dichiarato sciopero. Con una manifestazione a Roma quindi noi il giorno prima abbiamo fatto manifestazioni in tutte le città. Il giorno dopo abbiamo fatto una manifestazione grande a Roma. E abbiamo portato quarantamila persone

Translator: So fourth of December, there was a referendum in an attempt of change, the constitutional law in a right marketist approach. And there was a big opposition against this reform. There was like a referendum, you know, what is it like a consult? And the day of that of the day of the referendum, there was a strike

Riccardo: Ho parlato con me

Translator: Maybe the only trade union which called for a strike to support the referendum against this

Interviewer: Was this trade Union. USB. And they had to

Translator: Convince the government to Come to yes, which had 40000 people in Rome. This was it. And also that was also because they were able to connect with the movement. They were so I

Interviewer: I have a kind of a technical question about the union. Yeah. How do I join? Yeah. I mean, if it’s if it’s linked not just to walk to the workplace, but to a territory, I mean, can I be an unwaged person and have a housing problem and I join a branch that’s based in the territory? So is there a like a territorial branch? And then I am in that branch with someone who is a bus driver and then the bus driver person is also in a section for bus drivers. Yeah. And I don’t know a couple more technical questions about the union.

Translator: Arriva una domanda tecnica sul sindacato praticamente come funziona un sindacato territoriale dal punto di vista delle tessere o della partecipazione. Cioè se io sono come come mi cioè come funziona io sono in un territorio. Tu dici che è un sindacato territoriale quindi praticamente se io sono in un territorio e ho un problema di casa cosa succede quando esce dalla sede locale di USB e faccio partecipo alle riunioni e vengo tesserato e poi partecipo alle occupazioni. Insieme magari a un guidatore di autobus che fa anche parte del sindacato dei guidatori di autobus della parte del sindacato.

Riccardo: Noi abbiamo dei settori che sono il pubblico e il privato del tuo Main dipendenti pubblici

Translator: The two main branches government sector and private

Riccardo: E dipendenti pubblici sui soldi dei lavoratori della scuola della sanità dei comuni dei ministeri

Translator: In the government sector are the school workers, the health system workers, the university workers, the government, I mean, in a sense, administration ministers.

Riccardo:: E dal settore privato

Translator: Then is the private sector,

Riccardo: Which is only transport, logistics,

Translator: Transport, logistics, commercial private health care, private Ok?

Riccardo: Questi sono organizzati come un sindacato vero a cui hanno i loro direttivi i loro coordinamenti non hanno il segretario generale.

Interviewer: Ok. The workers are organized with their own specific coordination, but they don’t have a general secretary. There is not one general secretary for the trade union.

Translator: No, there is not one general secretary for all the trade union.

Riccardo: E qui ci sono i due settori principali. Poi ci sono I pensionati che sono organizzati come noi ASEA che è

Translator: That then the retired people and then ASEA, which is following the housing.

Riccardo: Tutti questi qua hanno dei rappresentanti della Confederazione

Translator: All these sectors they have representative in the confederation

Riccardo: Per cui si parte dalla mia azienda il mio ospedale

Translator: My workplace, my Hospital with local groups of workers, coordinate coordination.

Riccardo: Poi c’è un polo di CoordinamentoProvinciale

Translator: And regional coordination.

Riccardo: C’è un coordinamento nazionale

Translator: National Coordination for each branch/sector.

Riccardo: Per ogni settore National Coalition for ITC Branch. Tutti i settori hanno parimenti questa federazione che la federazione che gestisce politicamente l’organizzazione. Quindi ci sarà volere pubblico o privato casa

Translator: All the sectors have a federation which politically manages the organization. So public or private.

Riccardo: E tutti questo è il coordinamento giusto. Sì ma la federazione l’U.SB. Coordinamento nazionale confederale. E quindi qua ci siamo la federazione del sociale è organizzata in maniera diversa

Translator: So there is also a social federation, organized in a different way,

Riccardo: Perché non rappresentiamo nella federazione del sociale i soli lavoratori con la busta paga di che fa la trattenuta

Translator: Because we don’t represent only the workers which they have like a regular income and they are like, there is like a systematic way of being the trade union. I mean, you make an agreement with your boss and part of your money will go regularly to the office,

Interviewer: Which is that the reason why? I mean, that is what is funding this? I mean, this section of the workers which have this kind of working contract, they are funding. I mean, the activity in general, yeah, including this

Translator: E l’affermazione del sociale è formata da quelle categorie non riconducibili a dei lavoratori dipendenti quindi più che altro intermittenti ma non solo lavoratori

Interviewer: So the social federation is not, is regarding different contracts, which are not in this case, so especially like temporary jobs and also unemployed

Riccardo: Ad esempio se qua c’è la volontà del Comune di fare la discarica i cittadini insieme a lui vengono da noi e si costruisce la lotta contro la discarica quindi non possiamo considerarlo.

Translator: For example, if the municipality wants to make a waste management plan in the park and all the citizens are coming and are opposing and they’re in coordination with the trade union. They are not asking to become members. They are members of the trade union because it’s like a struggle which is happening in one time and one period against one time. So they are different relationships, you understand? Something is the membership you have with the workers, something else is, for example, if you do, some struggle, different struggle on specific issues. In this case, there is no membership.

Riccardo: Con la quota. Sempre nel rispetto le forme di di lavoro intermittente generoso. Faccio solo un esempio eravamo qui un giorno ho visto i miei compagni e si sono presentati 40 immigrati. I quali ci hanno chiesto vogliamo essere organizzati da USB.

Translator: One day we were here and the group of migrants or 40 migrants, they came and they asked to be organized by USB and represented by USB

Riccardo: Perché volevano occupare un posto per vivere.

Translator: Because they wanted to squat a place to live.

Riccardo: Noi abbiamo detto noi non organizziamo occupazioni. Facciamo in modo di chiamare la città e di costruire una rete solidale intorno a voi

Translator: The answer was that we will not organize as USB, as we will call for wider Solidarity Network to support your struggle and we will do it together with other groups and other social forces on the ground,

Riccardo: E quando abbiamo messo insieme tante realtà

Translator: Inside our place. We put together different groups will

Riccardo: Manifesto del Primo Maggio. Qui non c’è la firma di USB

Translator: And this is the poster of the first May March, which was organized by this coordination in which USB is not a signatory

Riccardo: Però alla manifestazione c’erano 400 bandiere di USB

Translator: But the USB was one of the I mean was the main coordinator and there were like four hundred USB flags in the march

Riccardo: Ma come c’erano le bandiere di altri due specie. Meglio il rosso vivo dopo. Mi. Se la modalità della federazione del sociale

Translator: So this is the way the social federation is how it works.

Riccardo: But there is a section that specific for housing as well.

Translator: Yes, ASIA. Yes, because in that case, I mean, once you support houses, it’s a long term process. It’s not like, I mean, if it lasts, at least if it is evicted, OK, but if it lasts as long as it lasts, you have to continue doing so. Yeah.

Riccardo: Gli diciamo però c’è una sezione specifica per le case e vedi così anche perché le lotte per le case sono cose che comunque da questa settimana durano per mesi non è come una campagna familiare che sulle famiglie.

Riccardo: Asea delle famiglie occupanti. Sia nel quartiere San Siro che in piazza su quattro palazzi con dentro le famiglie questa era una roba un po differente queste erano delle persone che dormivano in strada alcune rifugiate altri cacciati dai centri per irifugiati. Che ci hanno chiesto di essere organizzate da Usb

Translator: This section was families of migrants, now they’re squatting.

Riccardo: Quante sono le case in San Siro 5 500 case famiglia

Translator: 00 families in neighbourhood , one neighbourhood located in one neighbourhood in Milan and, uh, four buildings in another, 80 hundred more families in another.

Riccardo: Più quattro palazzi che saranno 800 in ogni

Translator: In some more time than 8 hundred more families in another area. So they were like refugees or migrants or refugees, which were like refused by the centers, yeah, so it almost. They built a mutual help space that.

Riccardo: In cui c’è lo scambio di

Translator: The exchange of goods among families

Riccardo: Ed è molto interessante come con un laboratorio politico

Translator: And it’s a very interesting political laboratory

Riccardo: Tikal perché è l’unica occupazione che possiamo dire alla romana. Perché a Roma c’è alcuni palazzi a Milano non sono mai occupati Avevamo occupato noi uno a Sesto San Giovanni e poi non ci sono mai più fatto occupazioni di massa. E questa è l’unica occupazione di palazzi con dentro le famiglie.

Translator: So this is the only case in Milan, which is following the example of the practice in Rome, because in Roma, it is a habit, I mean, the movement of housing and squatting is very strong and it is it is common to squat full buildings. I mean, you gather a lot of families and then you make a big squat. But in Milan, it’s not like one apartment, one about one apartment. But it was also the moment it was not. It was never able to squat full buildings at once. But we did it in that I told you that we squatted like twenty four apartments. Yeah. So that was one case. And after that, in Milan, this is the only other case which happened after all of that whole buildings squatted

Interviewer: I just have a couple more small questions, and what sector is the main membership of the union?

Translator: Qual è il settore che ha il maggior numero di tesserati

Interviewer: I’ll just give you them all into one go. Representative structures does it enter? And do you have the word for corporate and

Translator: Quindi voi siete diciamo amichevoli i sindacati partecipano al sindacato non partecipa. Qual è la posizione vostra.

Interviewer: Does it enter representative structures? The union? I go into representative structures with employers like works councils. I’m not understanding. Maybe they don’t have them in Italy, have they? Is there a corporate structure that means private sector? No, where there is a permanent representation of the workers and the employer, and some unions enter these structures. Some unions do not.

Translator: I mean, you mean negotiation tables that I mean, they are like structural places where you yeah.

But permanent?

Yeah, yeah.

Italian explanation

Interviewer: Until representatives are

Translator: Ok. Yeah. What is your question? These are the, I mean, this kind of permanent negotiation strategy that

Interviewer: Goes into these

Translator: Structures when you visit this is indicative of this negative competition.

Translator: Noi siamo maggiormente rappresentativi

Interviewer: They are like one, I mean, you can go inside this kind of permanent negotiation structure, if you have a like a critical mass of membership, you are allowed to be there and they are in this kind of situation in some sectors.

Ok.

Translator: Il cui nome

Riccardo: Sistema numero sei una

Translator: Gemma che rappresenti una confederazione maggiormente

Riccardo: Rappresentativa questo nel

Translator: Both for the for the government sector as well as for the private sector.

Translator: Is the fourth of the trade unions in terms of representation. So after the three main institutional trade unions (CGIL, CISL, UIL) today are the most, the biggest.

Interviewer: And what are the main industries and main employers that this union is based in? What are the main employers or the main industries that this union

Translator: Has a presence? You mean in the private sector, private or public? Well, I mean, OK, what is up there? There will be many.

Interviewer: Many? Ok, yeah. I mean,

Translator: Because it’s not. The union is not concentrated in any particular area, like, say, the railway or hospitals.

Interviewer: It’s OK, but there is something to see the specific company I understood. Ok, you wanted to say the sectors?

Riccardo: sia nel senso che lui voleva che voleva sapere se all’interno delle grandi divisioni tra privato e pubblico ci sono dei settori privato settore pubblico nei quali voi avete una presenza numericamente superiore. Quali sono i settori che sono più più forti all’interno dei diversi settori di rdb scusa USB e all’interno delle macro allusioni pubbliche.

Translator: Yeah, in a sense, OK. Some of this inequality represents a numerical superiority. The trick is not to perform terribly diverse, to be inclusive, be egalitarian.

Riccardo: Noi abbiamo un

Translator: Mercato unico i trasporti la logistic agli ospedali.

Riccardo: Noi non siamo un grande sindacato non siamo ci CIGL Ci sarà una piccola roba. Però quando dichiariamo sciopero si ferma il Paese perché siamo strategici in alcuni settori. Uno di questi trasporti

Translator: Ok, we are not like a big organization like the main trade unions, but we have the strength of like stopping the country when we when we declare strike because we are as we are a strategical, I mean, presence in some strategic sectors like the transport, for example,

Riccardo: Poi purtroppo. E alcune leggi hanno limitato il diritto di sciopero

Translator: But it unfortunately some laws put strong limitation to the right of strike.

Riccardo: Con cui noi su alcuni settori non possiamo scioperare nonostante che abbiamo un numero elevato di iscritti

Translator: in some sectors. In spite of the fact that we have a good number of members we cannot strike,

Riccardo: Direi che siamo ben più iscritti nel settore pubblico che in quello privato.

Translator: I would say that we have more, more members in the public, in the government sector than in the private sector,

Riccardo: Perché il settore privato lo stiamo sviluppando da quattro anni che noi eravamo prima un sindacato che era presente solo nel pubblico impiego.

Translator: Because we used to be until four years ago, a trade union present only on the government side. So this field of work started four years ago, so the numbers are less. But now, after four years, the numbers in the private sector, have grown a lot and more or less they’re similar, the numbers

Riccardo: Perché ci sono pezzi interi di lavoratori che passano USB

Translator: Because they are like the workers are shifting to this trade union. In bloc in the sense that like all the group of one of companies that shifted, I mean, there had been a very, very, for example, inside the ILVA, which was a steel factory

Riccardo: In due anni abbiamo fatto solo lì più di mille iscritti

Translator: In two years we got more than a thousand of members,

Riccardo: Un anno che lavoriamo sulla logistica qua in Lombardia

Translator: It’s been one year since we are working the logistics sector in Lombardy.

Riccardo: Ma noi abbiamo fatto quasi 1000 1500 iscritti

Translator: And again, we got almost 1000, 1500 members

Interviewer: And does the union have international links,

Translator: Avete relazioni internazionali?

Riccardo: Noi facciamo parte della Federazione Sindacale Mondiale.

Translator: We are a member of the I don’t know, the English translation, I think it’s Mondial Federation of the Trade Union or Global Federation of Trade Unions, I don’t want to lose their will be the the English name, so I don’t, I don’t know.

Interviewer: What is your role in the organization?

Riccardo: Ho ricoperto – wild card. Un po tutti i ruoli. Lavoro cerco di ricoprire ruoli. Negli organismi uno che posso..

Translator: He sees it all inside his personal involvement. He is the person who does whatever is needed.

Riccardo: Giusto da 30 anni qua per cui.

Translator: It’s 30 years or 30 years inside the organization. I did experience more or less all the roles inside the organization. And now I’m trying not to have responsibility roles.

Riccardo: IE’ piu militante che dirigente

Translator: He is more of an activist than leadership.

Interviewer: One final question for clarity. In nineteen eighty five, there was the move to social centers. Yeah, yeah. 1985. Just to maybe address what kind of social need the social center fulfilled. Why the social center was a good idea?

Translator: Need need?

Interviewer: Why this fight is related to the deeper social processes?

Translator: Ok. Yeah. What do you mean, deeper social process?

Interviewer: It’s your phrase. What do

Translator: I mean? You mean that? I mean, yeah, to be connected with the social process?

Riccardo: C’è qualcosa che che comunque. Di cui non abbiamo parlato ma che potrebbe essere ciò che senti sarebbe utile comunque dire che per una ragione o per l’altra non è uscita fino adesso e che vuoi aggiungere che.

Se voleva voleva tornare un attimo indietro su una cosa specifica che gli interessava era solo questione l'85 l’inizio dei centri sociali voleva sapere aspetto la domanda specifica e secondo te qual stato diciamo la chiave per cui i centri sociali si sono connessi a un processo sociale che poi ha determinato il loro successo anche e dice qual era il bisogno che loro hanno soddisfatto cioè qual era il bisogno e le aspettative che la gente ha trovato nei centri sociali per i quali poi i centri sociali sono stati un successo hanno funzionato e la gente ci si identificata

Riccardo: Perché era una forma di organizzazione non strutturata. E quindi si costruiva strada facendo cioè era un laboratorio politico in cui abbiamo intercettato anche altri giovani come noi in questo laboratorio politico non si è espresso il meglio di quella generazione quindi il successo è stato sicuramente questo il fatto di non essere né un’organizzazione ne un partito cioè ognuno si costruisce il centro sociale a seconda di come quello che lo vivevano gli occupanti c’era un centro sociale che era contro il fatto di vendere di dare dei rimborsi economici. Invece c’erano centri sociali che lo davano in certi certi centri sociali di ispirazione anarchica certi comunista però non è che la forma centro sociale era uguale ovunque.

Translator: So he believes that the reason of the success of the social centers there is of what what the people found in the social center was a way of doing politics, which was not structured and fixed. So the politics was done, I mean, day by day meetings by the people which were physically taking part in the process. So that was making the people feel that they were doing something directly taking direct. I mean, having a direct impact in the process by their participation. And that was the reason why it was like a political laboratory. And that was like that expressed the best of of that generation in terms of political experience. And it was not a they want, they didn’t want to be an organization. They didn’t want to be a political party. They wanted to build their own way of working, specifically center by center. Uh, by what were the real participants of the process. Mm hmm. So they were like people were taking different options on the same issues. And if to give a salary, if not to give a salary, ideological beliefs and so that was very much open to the seeing the specific groups which were there and also the individual participants. So in his opinion, that is why.

Interviewer: But I mean, how did the social center speak to the particular problems of youth in nineteen eighty five? Youth as a sector, how did this? Say, did it relate to a housing need to a lack of cultural space?

Riccardo: Quindi diciamo sempre su questo tema voleva capire se secondo te qual è stato il modo in cui i centri sociali hanno parlato specificamente ai giovani ha negli anni 85 se stesse con era perché in quest tramite i centri sociali i giovani trovavano un’occupazione di casa oppure perché facevano trova uno spazio culturale cioè qual era secondo te è il modo il mondo l’attrattiva che hanno rappresentato i centri sociali per i giovani degli anni dall'80. Avere uno spazio da autodeterminarsi da autogestire

Translator: The appeal was to have a space where the physical space and also political project to self manage.

Riccardo: Quindi chiunque aveva la possibilità di farsi il suo centro sociale

Translator: So everybody had its own .

Riccardo: E il bello bello che quando dentro le riunioni dei centri sociali si litigava quel gruppo prendeva se ne andava un altro Cioè prima di

Translator: Everybody had the possibility of building its own social center. And in many occasions it happened. And when the differences inside the groups were too strong, they could just start a new process according to their own wishes.

Riccardo: Noi quando stavamo stretti dentro il Leoncavallo abbiamo occupato un Casalotto?

Translator: When we felt like differences with the Leoncavallo, we moved out and we started a new new project, which was which is casalottoxx?

Interviewer: I just wanted a bit of clarity around the social centres in 1985. Thanks.

Riccardo: Se invece si voleva erano domande perché volevo capire come capire meglio sui centri sociali e ti ringrazio ma ho denunciato.