Catalunya - Victor

Interview Details

• Region: Europe - Catalunya
• Language: English
• Interviewee: Victor
• Interviewers: Terry Dunne & Mags Liddy
• Date: 2017
• PGA Affiliation: Movimenta de Resistência Global, Zapatista Solidarity
• Transcript: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/t2wxoq8a5qg9f61w63vz2/PGA-Catalunya-3-Victor-.m4a.docx?rlkey=cfbnf882pwqyi8hefsgljs2o9&dl=0

Transcript

Terry Dunne: So, Victor, maybe the first thing I could ask you is how you how you started to get involved in PGA activism.

Victor: At the time of the Prague protests.

Victor: Involved; I was always left. But before we supported Zapatista solidarity.

Mags Liddy: Okay. Yeah. So you’ve been involved with the Zapatista solidarity. But before that you mentioned your family.

Victor: Yeah, I was always left.

Mags Liddy: Yeah, yeah. So how did you hear about the Zapatista groups? The solidarity?

Victor: I never got fully involved in politics because I don’t like communist things in the 1970s, 1980s. They were all communist. And I don’t like to get involved. Then, there were all kinds of movements. I feel more happy to be involved. There were anti-authoritarian movements. It was not sectarian. So it was different. It was different, a different kind of politics.

It was non-authoritarian.

Mags Liddy: Ok? Yeah. And when did MRG or your involvement with MRG begin?

Victor: MRG was developed for Prague. I was in one way because my Zapatista collective was involved. But I don’t know whether there was any meeting before Prague. In Prague, I was involved one month before the demonstrations and during the demonstration, I had to go because I had to work.

Mags Liddy: Oh, you had to leave.

Victor: And after Prague was when I was involved directly in MRG.

Terry Dunne: And what do you think about the impact, the effect and what people’s activism here locally? What effect do you think it had being part of an international movement?

Victor: I was involved in a movement that had two sides. One solidarity about Zapatistas in Chiapas. But second, to be Zapatistas here. It was two sides, sometimes together, sometimes separated. But there was yet this concept. And I mean, in Barcelona, it’s very useful. In the 80s, 90s, there was El Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras, in Colombia, solidarity with Latin America. It’s an idea. So I know that. But in the moment, but in Praga between, I think, 96 and 2003/4 it was the idea of being more global, not just Nicaragua, El Salvador or Mexico, but for global life. Sometimes it was difficult, basically. The change was not always feeling, knowledge, what are you thinking in that moment? I go to the PGA because I am from MRG and MRG, because I am from Zapatistas. But when you go to MRG, you lose a lot of contact with Zapatistas. when you go to the PGA. You lost a little contact with MRG. There was, uh, {how do you} do that sometimes? Well, I think sometimes it was more a slogan than a real thing. That concept of acting locally and globally was not always fine, but well in spirit.

Terry What did the PGA do well? What was it successful at?

Victor: Many things. I’ll give you one. Before, it was not completed, but the idea that as I said before, of solidarity - not just Nicaragua, not just India, not just this area, it’s global. Not just your solitary solidarity country.

Mags Liddy: With. Yes. It was more bigger, broader and global.

Victor: We have to be able to connect all. And that the idea about contact. Also, I know more PGA in Europe, connected people in Europe. It was a kind of politics or non authoritarian thing. There was that moment to two ways of seeing the global movement. The social forum and the PGA.

I hate social forum but I like PGA. But the strength of the social forum I think was small but it was in a way, a victory of all politics. Ok. at Social forum there were more organized, but PGA was another kind of thing. I always say that PGA was, social forum was “another world is possible.” PGA is more like the Zapatistas “one world with many worlds.” Its two concepts are totally different.

Mags Liddy: Yes. Yes, I understand. Yes.

Victor: And I think PGA is not that and MRG is not that big. Very few people know about them, but some things remain between the political parties. It’s not a lot, but it’s so much affecting things.

Mags Liddy: Yeah, so the results are there. The ideas are still in the politics.

Terry Dunne: Is the non authoritarian spirit still there?

Victor: Yeah. Barcelona we suspect it’s very peculiar because anarchy, anarchist spirit, it’s not just that in Barcelona there are many anarchists, but all kinds of movements here, you can’t say we made our political movement and you are the secretary. it’s not an anarchist spirit. Barcelona when I say this about, because in Barcelona anarchism that initially engaged in the political, you cannot make leftist politics. without someone saying this. I think the organizations PGA would be ?? Globally.

Terry Dunne: And this is true of even the groups that are being elected into the local government in Barcelona?

Victor: Yeah, I think many people will say that for now, I admit I met Anna Palao in MRG

Mags Liddy: You met her. Where?

Victor: I met people with my niece and nephew.

Terry Dunne: And that even in the elections, that spirit is still there.

Victor: Yes, because they are in election but the way they work as a Political party but it’s not as a socialist party. No, its not the same as the former Communist Party and others. Anna cannot say cannot say “that this is the policy of Barcelona.” Yeah. You just have the assembly.

Another party in Catalonia because they are independent. Well, they are the same way. And they decided to be in parliament, but political parties, its not the same thing.

Terry Dunne: And this is true in Catalonia, is it also true in Madrid and Seville? Is it also true?

Victor: Yes, I think. In Basque country, yes. organization independent in the Basque country. Also I worked with them.

Mags Liddy: Yeah. It’s assembly assembly,

Terry Dunne: So they have elections, but in an assembly, an assembly way.

Victor: It’s not going to parliament no. I think for Podemos, I met Pablo Iglesias in the PGA. Ok. It’s, its not PGA but if it was in Spanish. I could explain better, but the spirit is here.

Mags Liddy: Yeah. Yeah, the spirit lives on.

Victor: Yeah. People that I meet in that time, Prague, Iraq, Barcelona, World Bank, that kind of new politics that continues. Ok.

Terry Dunne: This is quite interesting for us because I think many things we were talking about with Mayo. It was the same as in Ireland. Yeah, but I’m that you here have a politics, which is both in elections and in assemblies, is not the same as Ireland. Now we have a far stronger, far left in the parliament than ever before, but it is an old style far left. Yeah. So this is interesting for us. And I think, yeah, I think the long term.

Victor: Of course, when you are in Parliament, things change. the kind of politics is.. things change, good but the kind of politics is, Ada Colao, can’t say “I wake up today, things have changed, I had a dream and go there.” No she asks..

Mags Liddy: Yeah, she yes, she is.

Terry Dunne: No. And the housing before the move to elections, a lot of the housing protests came from that tradition also. Yeah, and

Victor: It’s a crossing of two traditions based in Barcelona. The Okupa movement, squatting and the anti-globalization movement. In some occupied houses those two traditions crossed. Because when Prague 2001, 2002, we think, a few here Barcelona. And Ocupa/squatted movement almost only in Barcelona. And there was a mix between two movements. Ok. And. For instance, Ada Colau, the squatters house it’s a result of these, these two traditions. One in housing and local, and the other in global. Ok.

Terry Dunne: And so to get back to the PGA. Aside from the social forums. Yeah. Well, what were the biggest challenges and problems the PGA faced?

Victor: I think the first was the gap between local and global, it’s not it’s not easy to fill this. Yeah, in theory, it’s nice, but when people are in Barcelona, for instance. With housing problems. It’s not easy to think in a global way. At least in Barcelona, in these times, there was a thing that happened very much. I go from a collective to a platform.

Mags Liddy: Of collective, a platform of collectives.

Victor: Yeah. And using this platform, it’s the addition of all collectives. No, no. If the addition of people who go from politics, it’s another collective

Mags Liddy: And other collective. Yeah.

Victor: And in some way, I think PGA was another collective, but not an addition of collectives or local collectives. Yeah, right. Yeah. I was in PGA Marco from Italy or Marco from Holland was in PGA , and many people, but not people from collectives, or from local collectives. I think PGA was another collective, not an addition of collectives. If in my collective there are hundreds of people. and in England that collective had another hundred. I’m sorry, but PGA, but PGA has not. 200, but has two.

Mags Liddy: How were those two selected or why did they become PGA and not the larger?

Victor: There was no selection. There was a meeting in Strasbourg. Who can go? “I can go.” Yes, I think I remember with Mayo. There was a PGA meeting on the same weekend as another that was not particularly PGA.. Another in Austria for Social Forum. All right. The only two people in MRG that could go were Mayo and me. Okay. To me, it was easier for me to go to Strasbourg and for Mayo to go to Vienna for the Social Forum. It’s not “you’re the best to go”. It’s “I can go”.

Mags Liddy: It was you had the possibility to travel to take the time.

Victor: The money etc.

Mags Liddy: Were there any other difficulties in bringing local and global together, any other challenges?

Victor: Many.. I think there were some. The movement, it’s gone from the Zapatista government. The idea was to fight this… The Zapatistas said, “here, there’s a little fire” you know, and there would appear more fires,

Mags Liddy: A fight, you know,

Victor: Not fighting in struggle, but for even fighting. This is difficult. And the intention was to brighten and connect. But I think in Europe, there was a movement to spread this struggle. But it doesn’t fulfill. I don’t know exactly why, but there was a moment when Europe could take a moment, a victory in one moment in Chiapas, when Europe had to really engage with that struggle. But Europe doesn’t make it. It was the chance for Europe to say, “We are here and we react.” Europe, didn’t do it. they stopped.

Victor: I think Genoa was very important.

Mags Liddy: Genoa in what way? Important?

Victor: Because the day before Genoa I was talking with people and I remember someone said there will be at least one death, because they can’t let this movement grow. And you know, it was, I believe, the right military action in the same way that in 68 in France and 70s in Italy was a military victory of power. Genoa was an easy way to model. But it was a moment that said, “go to home or fight seriously?” I think it was important?

Mags Liddy: A turning point. Yeah. Yes. I see. Ok.

Victor: Because it’s for power. There was a moment where there was a struggle in tier one, I say they decided Tier One, but those struggling in Europe knew that was not expected to be. A need to be the problem, a vanguard under, but before to have the people in home, here in the home of the multinationals, so it’s not expected to be and they have to go to kill. You are an army and you are fighting with another country, but you have problems in your own country and it’s a problem. I have two problems and they had to go to their problem at home. Okay. So I mean, Genoa was, “Kids, game over.”

Mags Game over

**Victor:**Kids, Go home and play pokemon.

Terry Yeah, I think the situation now and as regards Europe is more positive, though, there are more people mobilized now and maybe in a different way than in 2000 and 2001 in Ireland anyways. And I would say so also in Spain. And I think when you are a minority, you can be dealt with in the military way. But the more and more people you have with them and the more ordinary people, the harder it

**Victor:**The problem is for power. At least where I live in Spain, mostly in Catalonia, that I know. Is that when we finished MRG, we said MRG did “let us have a struggle life.” It’s more difficult to fight with MRG when it’s who you are. Yes, we are nobody. But we are most difficult to fight, and many people. The most important things that MRG completed were not when we were in MRG. They wanted to hit Praga, Genoa. It’s management by power. All this year, this year Prague, this year Genoa, this year there’s a meeting of World Bank. Yeah, we said we want to manage ourselves. We need to do things. Not only react.

Mags Liddy: Yes, not

Victor: Be the way it died as a movement.

Victor: Movement movement and be ??

Mags Liddy: Be what? Yeah.

Terry Dunne: What did people go on to at that moment? Where did they go to?

Victor: Mostly housing people? And there was a mix with squatting moment that in 2003 there were two sites squatting and the anti- globalization. And by they don’t like us, but by 2004, I think there was a mixing. Ok. And so the housing movement is very important.

Terry Dunne: And that was the Biblienda? Order. Yeah. And also, as you say,

Victor: Plataforma de Afectados por la Hipoteca (PAH) Ok?

Terry Dunne: It’s linked. So that’s mostly where MRG went.

Victor: [00:40:01] Yes. And a lot of movements. But also cooperatives. social issues. But more concrete things,

Mags Liddy: More concrete things. Ok. And what about the Zapatista solidarity or the Latin America? Does that still exist in Barcelona or not?

Victor: In Barcelona, not. Because there were problems with Mexico. That was the situation. But where solidarity is still there. And now it’s different because, uh, years ago, uh, Mexican people in Barcelona were mostly right people, more conservative.

Mags Liddy: Oh yes.

Victor: Right now, it’s more likely to be anarchist people and they have their own movement.

Terry Dunne: And we might finish up. Victor, but is there’s anything you want to add that we have not discussed ?

Victor: The conclusion is that the PGA was because it was difficult to do what we wanted to do, and sometimes we say “we couldn’t do it”. Whereas, it was difficult, but we made one step. We really didn’t arrive to the end, but it’s now I said before my family was Socialist Party from 87, xx It’s not a hundred meter race, it’s a marathon.

Mags Liddy: Thank you Victor. Mucho gracias.